KT ideas thread

Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Calistoknight » 12 Feb 2017, 01:44

Question about ranks that may apply. Is it possible to assign both a civil and a military rank to an officer at the same time so they can perform all abilities associated to those ranks? For instance characters that have dipped into both the civil and military side of things can't put one or the other abilities to use without having both civil and military ranks.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Silverwarp » 12 Feb 2017, 07:39

ShadInquis wrote:Well, let's get the bad stuff out of the way. We have, if I count correctly, 46 officers in Wan. The bare minimum they need to be paid is 920 gold. We start with 3000. So salaries are really going to strain the city unless few heavily invest in more cash-making building.

Pretty much any action needs rank 1. So
3 training actions: +60 gold.
3 i-net: 60 gold
Contructors: 40 gold
Draft: 20 gold:

At this point have just about used up 1100 gold on salaries. The constructions we wanted are 1750 (mulberry + lower courts), the draft of 21 troops would cost 189 gold, already becoming impossible. Not to mention we wanted to craft weapons. So some compromises need to be made in our plans.


Overall, this is due to the very good response we got in the pre-game. Nearly 50 officers is not something we are likely to see stuck in a single city in the main game. For the pre-game, I do wonder if it may make sense to give the city a free pass/discount (like 50% of the base wages paid by Luo Yang)? Otherwise the KTs may be very very limited.


It's hard to say really without seeing what the income will look like. Also, I don't know if salaries are required to be paid this season, with the Spring 190 KT. I don't think that was clear. If no salaries are paid this turn, then we just need to make sure the 3000 gold count this turn. I already offered my suggestions (build 2 economic offices + Civil office, if possible) and based on the fact that we're limited to 10 spaces (for now), I'm not sure the mulberry orchards are worth it, especially since only 1 person can be staffed in it. We also need to account for the gold to staff base-level buildings (5 gold per person).

Calistoknight wrote:Question about ranks that may apply. Is it possible to assign both a civil and a military rank to an officer at the same time so they can perform all abilities associated to those ranks? For instance characters that have dipped into both the civil and military side of things can't put one or the other abilities to use without having both civil and military ranks.


[6.4 Ruler and Player Ranks]
There are four categories of ranks: Military, Civil, Ruler, and Imperial Ranks.

Military and Civil Ranks:
--Obtainable by any officer.
--Can hold one of each at any given time.


The answer appears to be yes. I also recall that ranks also give AP bonuses, so I guess the other question is, will people who gets ranks be able to use their AP bonuses now or until the next season's set of PTs?

Xu Yuan wrote:Alright folks, now that we know what Ranks are and how they effect A Lot in this version we will need to be rather conservative at first with how we dish out the ranks. We are looking for suggestions and how to use as many officers in Rank 1 as we can while maintaining a semblance of a budget.


I guess we should min-max it, at least for this season. I'm not sure what the income will look like, but at the same time, it would be unfair for PCs who get less gold because their characters are useful for one rank, but not another. Though, I suppose this doesn't matter for the pre-game.

As far as the ranks we need (starting with Suicide Fox as a base):
3 training actions: +60 gold.
3 i-net: 60 gold
Contructors: 40 (or 60) gold
Draft: 20 gold
3-12 Staff Buildings: 15 - 105 gold (105 assumes Civil office can be built this season, otherwise it could be up to 10 positions @ 5 gold each for 50 gold)
Spy action: 20 gold (if the plot doesn't pan out)
6 Search, if needed: (120 gold)

Han's thoughts


Well, if the army in Xiang Yang mobilize, would we be able to submit a force defense post, since they would pass near Wan? If we do, then we don't need to mobilize. Let's see what we find out from the plot too.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Han1977 » 12 Feb 2017, 20:45

Silverwarp wrote:...

Well, if the army in Xiang Yang mobilize, would we be able to submit a force defense post, since they would pass near Wan? If we do, then we don't need to mobilize. Let's see what we find out from the plot too.


We would be able to submit it, but it doesn't work if we want to stop them at the river. Because it only took them 1 turn to enter and another turn to land at our shore. Our submitted force defense need at least 2 turns, just to reach our own shore.

Even if our general have high innitiative and use dash, they still don't have enough time to stop the rebels from landing to our shore.

In the other hand, if we dispatch troop earlier and positioned them near the river. We can end their turn in ambush mode. Later, depend on the rebel's dispatched army, he could try to block or choose to retreat. Since it took 2 turns for the rebels, just to reach our shore, by the time they reach it, our troop would be already near/within the city.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Xu Yuan » 13 Feb 2017, 00:43

Wanted to note with Silverwarp. I spoke with SirEbrum about it and you are exactly right. If the Advanced Building is finished at the same time as the Pre-requisite it is still applicable. This said, I still feel that we should focus on the Civil Courts path, if only because of Cost effectiveness. Also being able to staff 2-4 in the Central Courts actually may be a better. Going for a dual path of Economic Office and Lower Courts may be even better in the short term due to hitting all angles with Lower Courts, but boosting our income with Economic Office.

To ShadInquis, it looks like there will be no deference on our regard. We will have to pay the full amount for each officer and rank. The 20 Gold may be only pre-game though, admittedly. Since Salary was 100+ in other versions.

To Calistoknight, I'm tempted to say it does greatly matter. Since only Rank 5 of both Grades have the allowed permissions to do either actions and therefore it looks like you can't have both choices. We can switch them on a character as need be I assume though?
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby ShadInquis » 13 Feb 2017, 00:52

The 20 income base (well, actually 25 as you need sub-officer or better, rank 1 for nearly everything) is what was planned for v6 as it is in the draft. IIRC that was the idea, so that the officers salary is more reasonable, compared to the city income.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Xu Yuan » 13 Feb 2017, 00:54

So That's where the draft rules are for V6. Thanks for pointing that out ShadInquis, can't believe I didn't know that.

EDIT: Those draft rules say to get to Grand Administrator all you need are 10 Officers and 200 Troops. Should we be aiming for that?
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Silverwarp » 13 Feb 2017, 03:37

Xu Yuan wrote:Wanted to note with Silverwarp. I spoke with SirEbrum about it and you are exactly right. If the Advanced Building is finished at the same time as the Pre-requisite it is still applicable. This said, I still feel that we should focus on the Civil Courts path, if only because of Cost effectiveness. Also being able to staff 2-4 in the Central Courts actually may be a better. Going for a dual path of Economic Office and Lower Courts may be even better in the short term due to hitting all angles with Lower Courts, but boosting our income with Economic Office.


When you say Civil Courts, you mean Central Courts, correct? I'm fine with that, but keep in mind it takes 2 season to get any benefit from Central Courts at a cost of 1800 gold. The Civil Office we can get this turn and it staffs 1-3 people with building the Economic Office. We also get the same benefits as the Lower Courts from the Civil Office, but perhaps because more people are staffed in the Civil Office compared to Lower Courts, we should get more benefits out of the Civil Office over the Lower Courts. We can build the Lower Courts next turn and if there's enough gold, we can put the Central Courts in too. Don't forget, we only have 10 building slots, unless we want to search for more building slots next turn, so we should see what the best 10 buildings are for what we need right now.

Xu Yuan wrote:So That's where the draft rules are for V6. Thanks for pointing that out ShadInquis, can't believe I didn't know that.

EDIT: Those draft rules say to get to Grand Administrator all you need are 10 Officers and 200 Troops. Should we be aiming for that?


I'm in favor of that. We might need at least that many troops anyway just to fight Xiang Yang's army IMO.

Han1977 wrote:We would be able to submit it, but it doesn't work if we want to stop them at the river. Because it only took them 1 turn to enter and another turn to land at our shore. Our submitted force defense need at least 2 turns, just to reach our own shore.

Even if our general have high innitiative and use dash, they still don't have enough time to stop the rebels from landing to our shore.

In the other hand, if we dispatch troop earlier and positioned them near the river. We can end their turn in ambush mode. Later, depend on the rebel's dispatched army, he could try to block or choose to retreat. Since it took 2 turns for the rebels, just to reach our shore, by the time they reach it, our troop would be already near/within the city.


Who's to say they're going to attack us or cross the river. The rebels' goal is to pincer attack Luo Yang, so they can traverse along the river bank on their side and then enter the river at the last minute and travel up the river to Luo Yang. We can cut them off by sending our armies due west and block them if they stay in the river at 1 river tile chokepoint. In any case, I think we should try to get more information first. Challenge #2 should help us in that regard.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Han1977 » 14 Feb 2017, 08:06

Silverwarp wrote:... In any case, I think we should try to get more information first. Challenge #2 should help us in that regard.


Agreed, the 2nd crisis give us an opportunity to gather information before the 1st KT, so it is safe to wait until we get the result out of it.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby ShadInquis » 24 Apr 2017, 11:47

So, let's reanimate this, now that we have intel on Xiang Yang. In general I assume Xiang Yang is semi-autonomous. While it may receive some extra things from the rest of the rebel faction, the assumption is that it will not happen on any significant scale. At least not now.

Observations:
1. Indirect from prefect/commandant: the rebels seem to have surprisingly good admin, but their commandant is fairly mediocre (indicating military officers are weaker than our combat officers)

2. Xiang Yang has a significant amount of military power: 210 total batallions, + around 100 they could draft this KT. So that's 300-320 battalions if they choose to attack immediately after spring. These troops also have and advantage in training, but this should slowly be negated as our officers should be better at training.

3. The rebels have quite good armaments too, with 110 heavy arms and 45 bows. They have no smithy, so no way to build new armaments this turn. A head on engagement between would be a very bad idea. Re rebels have no starting weapons or ships.

Possible scenarios
1. Rebels decide to attack in spring. In this scenario, they use their numbers to try to rush us before we can mobilise our defence. If we went along with our old plan of drafting only 20 troops or so, it would be 120 vs 320 (with better equipment) and even the higher skill of our officers would not be enough to overcome that. The only upside for us in this scenario is that the rebels would have no siege weapons


2. Rebels attack in summer. That would mean that they build a smithy in this KT and some armaments/siege weapons in the next. This gives us an extra turn to do things, and potentially increase the size of our force and its equipment. The problem is that the same applies to the enemy. A summer invasion could potentially as large as 450 batallions.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Xu Yuan » 24 Apr 2017, 12:22

The consensus in RP was to play the long game taking Silverwarp's (Su Yu's) suggestions of creating an Economic Office than an Agricultural Office, while selling some food to pay the officer's stipends. Then next KT we would start doing things revolving around the military. You believe we don't have that sort of luxury ShadInquis?
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby cjh1k2004 » 24 Apr 2017, 12:28

I actually wonder if we should rescind some of the military ranks for now, if we don't have enough gold to pay salaries. With our current drafted troops it's not like anyone would need the extra unit limit, right...?
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby ShadInquis » 24 Apr 2017, 13:22

Xu Yuan wrote:The consensus in RP was to play the long game taking Silverwarp's (Su Yu's) suggestions of creating an Economic Office than an Agricultural Office, while selling some food to pay the officer's stipends. Then next KT we would start doing things revolving around the military. You believe we don't have that sort of luxury ShadInquis?

As I said earlier in the thread (and early RPs), we do need a working economy, considering the sheer amount we have to pay in salaries alone (again, an earlier post in this thread I made, to which Siverwarp made his suggestion). Which would leave us with no cash to actually buy weapons, but it seemed a good tradeoff for he long term. However, the intel on the rebels does reveal a quite uncomfortable amount of troops they have. And if they do a full draft and start the invasion in spring we are looking at 120 troops vs 320. It's not impossible to beat of course, but it would be very very difficult.

On the other hand, going all out in military leaves us with a barebones economy which is not good either, since we would not be able to sustain our army.

I guess the question is: are we willing to take the risk, and do we have a plan for fighting worse than 3-1 odds if we do. We still have 3 PTs to think about it, so maybe we get some more intel.

cjh1k2004 wrote:I actually wonder if we should rescind some of the military ranks for now, if we don't have enough gold to pay salaries. With our current drafted troops it's not like anyone would need the extra unit limit, right...?

I would assume this to be the case. Nominal ranks being mostly cosmetic and game-mechanic ranks being assigned on a needs basis. We have a lot to pay as it is.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby ShadInquis » 24 Apr 2017, 16:17

So, trying to think more carefully about what we could do if we do in fact face a spring rush by the rebels.

Rebels:
110 Heavy Infantry
45 Archers
140-160 Infantry
Training points in army: around 60 (12.5 starting + around 50 with 3 officers training)
No armaments or extra weapons as they have no smithy

Us:
30 Archers
70 Infantry
Training points in army: around 60 (we have no starting value, but our officers are a little better, giving us the same thing after 1 season).
+ whatever we produce and draft this turn. We do have a smithy so can make heavy arms/bows.

Siege notes
Short version: bad idea. The rebels would have no siege weapons, but that does not mean they can't take the city.
*A number of tactics can be used, including fire attack, tunnel and flood. The latter could hit 3 wall tiles at a time.
*The enemy would not have to worry about supplies as Wan has numerous villages to the south, which could be pillaged (also destroying our economy).

Battle notes
So, as tempting as it is to sit behind the walls, it really does not seem to be that good of a choice. It's a false security. Therefore the enemy would need to be engaged outside the walls.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby UnholyBlade » 24 Apr 2017, 18:29

Is our economy actually based on the villages outside of the walls, or are they just a target for armies to roll through and plunder? I assumed the infrastructure of our city was just produced from the city itself, as are any subsequent buildings that we construct, rather than actually having a place on the map as a target to be exploited/defended. I still think producing bows first would be smart.

I disagree with your assessment in trying to sally forth and meet their army in the field. The only advantage we have that the rebels don't have walls. Right now, they outnumber us, and I think meeting them head on would be bad for business. Unless the villages play a bigger part than I realize, in which case I agree we need to safeguard our economy.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Rebel » 24 Apr 2017, 20:39

Given the numbers posted, I really doubt they would attack in Spring. I had estimated Xiang Yang numbers would be close to 400. If there's only 210 now they'd end up with close to 300ish after the draft?

No siege weapons on enemy. Only 45 bows. As long as our army gets trained and stays on walls and doesn't move out, we would be able to defend easily.

How does mobilize work? If the enemy uses mobilize this KT, will we be informed during civil phase and also need to use mobilize action in KT to put units on map? Or can defenders mobilize after the invading force starts marching out of their city?
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