KT ideas thread

Re: KT ideas thread

Postby In Ferro Veritas » 31 Jan 2017, 00:11

I'm fine with the fact that players will accumulate a whole mess of skills by the end of the game. That's fairly realistic and it's also a reward for having such a long-lived character.

I would, however, do four things if I were elected God-Emperor of Simzhou.

1. Reduce stats at signup. 90+ stats should be exceptional, not something you can simply roll. Most characters should be looking at 80 as a realistic top stat unless they completely gimp everything else. And even then I'm not convinced it's a good addition to the game. While there were certain Sima Yis running around as unknown dudes at this time, there were also a whole mess of Xiahou Maos. (Except our XM). If the average good officer is something like 70-70-50-50-30, I'm happy. I'd even argue for something like 70-50-50-30-30, but I think that might be too much of a stat squish.

2. Implement a scaling stat/skill point new character system, which produces better officers over time. I would aim for new officers to be (base sign up +50% of what a player might've gained if a character were active all game). This would reduce the penalty of character death without trivializing it. I don't know if SimRTK has a system like this; I last played in '07 or something.

3. Implement a trait system. These would be skills that couldn't be studied or tutored, but rather things that simply have to be taken at sign-up (or acquired naturally over time). Traits would be things you couldn't really aim to acquire, but which just sort of happen to the character. "Monocular; You got shot in the eye by Cao Xing; -10 War, -5 everything else!", for instance. A player would sign up with one positive and one negative trait (opt for two negative for more... something?), which would influence their character a bit. Some other examples might be social, such as a trait reflecting membership in one of the more powerful clans (given our start date, probably just Lius and Yuans).

Traits might be a little tough to fairly implement, but they could get fun.

4. Replace raw stat bonuses on items with items that provide very specific bonuses for certain things. Bonuses could vary from strictly PT-related ("Super Fancy Ink; Everyone loves receiving your letters!; +5 bond per letter) to things that are strictly KT-related ("Morally Dubious Construction Standards; For some reason, you just love forced labor; -10% cost to build things -- and you keep 1% of it!"). There could even be temporary things, with quick-heal "potions" being the most obvious and least interesting ("Get Out Of Jail Free; Just because you're spying doesn't mean you're a bad guy. And a fistful of silver ensures the jailers see it that way, too.; If captured while spying, immediately be set free and destroy this item").

This has two benefits. First, it eliminates the silliness that arises from having a +6 War sword ("hey, I'm now better at training soldiers because I have a new sword! Go me!") and specializes a character. You may not be better at training now, but your sword makes it easier to wound the enemy, so you're more dangerous in a duel.



I might be out in left field here, though.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Bradums » 31 Jan 2017, 02:38

I don't think you get elected. I heard there's a hidden fight club in the tavern, and you have to win 100 consecutive bare-knuckle boxing matches in a row against volunteer players, culminating in a battle royale between you and staff members chosen at random.

Anyway...

1. I actually prefer this idea. I like lower starting stats and more Exp/SP gains. After all, people love the PTs because they love stats and growth. They love building up a better PC. There's a reason some people just enjoy PTs and KTs over RP (this has always been a thing, and I won't pretend to understand it, but I'm not fighting it anymore). Whether the current system ends up diminishing stat/skill gains or not, putting players on a more mortal realm to begin with and allowing more gradual gains in turns seems like a good concept. It's allowing more of what subconsciously gratifies players without - theoretically? - sacrificing gameplay.

2. I think SimRTK had this in place. Or...at least, I remember back in v2, I might've seen this. Again, time is a blur to me at this point. I'm borderline senile now that I'm 30.

3. I like Traits, but I recall them being hard to balance at times in other sims. Granted, it's really just kind of a more RP-centric Skill, but I like the concept. It acts as sort of a defining skill to the PC that can't be taught. Not saying it should or shouldn't be added to the system at this point, just that I like the idea.

4. Hey...it's a fancy sword. People listen to guys with fancy swords. This is a fact.

Other than that, just want to say I'm - in my own personal opinion, take that for what its worth - not a fan of capping skills or stats in any way out of the normal 100 max. The system should act as its own cap; and any player who reaches the cap or gets to an extent of the stats/skills does so with a ton of time and devoted AP, so they earned it. If you cap stats or skills at any given number, it's like cutting a PC off and taking away a big chunk of why we play.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Mat » 31 Jan 2017, 20:54

In Ferro Veritas wrote:1. Reduce stats at signup. 90+ stats should be exceptional, not something you can simply roll. Most characters should be looking at 80 as a realistic top stat unless they completely gimp everything else. And even then I'm not convinced it's a good addition to the game. While there were certain Sima Yis running around as unknown dudes at this time, there were also a whole mess of Xiahou Maos. (Except our XM). If the average good officer is something like 70-70-50-50-30, I'm happy. I'd even argue for something like 70-50-50-30-30, but I think that might be too much of a stat squish.


I'd like to see this change, too. Probably like to see a 70-70-50-50-50 as the baseline instead of the one you suggested, but it'd make exceptional stats far more impressive. When a player has a 90 Pol I just think they rolled it. A game where a character earns that 90 would just be more interesting to me.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby LukeYB » 31 Jan 2017, 20:58

I think you guys are shooting a tad low though. PCs need to be the exceptional officers, to make it more exciting for the actual players. 85 as the highest at start up could be a thing, or maybe 89 as the high-end of the random possible max.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby ShadInquis » 31 Jan 2017, 22:11

LukeYB wrote:I think you guys are shooting a tad low though. PCs need to be the exceptional officers, to make it more exciting for the actual players. 85 as the highest at start up could be a thing, or maybe 89 as the high-end of the random possible max.

If you have a full game with a couple of hundred exceptional officers right from the start, they are not really exceptional anymore. It's a bit boring to start at the level of the top historical officers, and it also makes a major part of the game redundant (the whole bond system, recruiting historical officers and so on). I like the feeling of getting there and achieving it. I can accept someone maxing just a single stat to, say 90, at signup but they would need to actually sacrifice other stats for this.

For the same reason, my custom officers in RTK 13 have only 1 stat in the 80-s. My latest one had 72-61-83-55 and only a few average skills. It only made it more fun to watch him grow to rival Zhuge Liang.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby LukeYB » 31 Jan 2017, 22:39

I've got nothing against the spirit of the idea! I just think the statlines suggested are just a tad too extreme in the other direction. Maybe closer to 85-80-55-55-50? Of course, getting into the nitty-gritty of the details isn't really necessarily so I'll say no more on the subject :P
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby In Ferro Veritas » 31 Jan 2017, 23:16

A character that is 85-80-55-55-50 is considered "outstanding" in two stats and "competent" in three others. He has no real weaknesses. Furthermore, an 85-80-55-55-50 statline can easily be 90-70-55-55-55 (or something close to that; not doing the math right now). It's essentially the same problem we have now.

Characters start so high that there has to be a hard cap on how many points they can have in a given stat so you don't have some random dude roll a 100 War thug and drop kick Lu Bu through a wall in his first battle. It's just silly.

PCs becoming exceptional? I don't have an issue with that. I don't even have an issue with completely new sign ups being really good late game. I just have an issue with stupidly awesome PCs right out the gate. We'd essentially be starting with power creep at play; anything but the very best NPC would be useless except as an extra body in a KT by the tenth turn.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Bradums » 01 Feb 2017, 14:51

That's essentially how I feel about it. I have no problem with people being exceptional, and I think we all love it when our PCs are 100-100-100-100-100, but for the sake of balance and growth, I wouldn't mind a lower starting statline.

Like I mentioned, though, I do feel that if we start with lower statlines, we should reevaluate Exp growth to make sure we're not killing that off, as well. I don't want to lower statlines AND diminish growth. If we lower statlines, which I feel is a great idea, I would like to see a slight increase to Exp growth to accommodate.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Suicide Fox » 01 Feb 2017, 14:52

*raises hand* I only -really- play the game for PTs, KTs, and Battles.. light on the RP :)

Anyway, I'm against the idea of gimping stats from what they are.. and here's why: I doubt the game will last long.

Hear me out, growth is good. And I love this game. But, there's a reason a game hasn't started up in years. In the end, with all these rules (and everything needing to be done by hand), staff makes too much work for itself over a long period of time and eventually they say "F-it" (this applies to players too, because when you start having to do 5+ KTs and battles it starts to get very tedios) The workload just becomes too much for a handful of people to handle.

We have like... 40+ cities to control and maybe 100-150 active PCs when a full run happens, if that?

So above, you see my logic. With this in mind, gimping stats means I probably won't see that much growth anyway unless they DRAMATICALLY inflate your stat/skill growth. I would much rather enjoy the early game when everyone is motivated. Even with how stats are now, you still don't hold a candle to Lubu, Zhang Fei, Zhang Liao, etc...

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Sir Ebrum » 01 Feb 2017, 23:23

The sim has been redesigned to have 1/3 the number of KTs and 3x the number of PTs as last version for a reason. PTs are a lot less work all around. So, I expect v6 to be more sustainable in the long term (I can attest that Chen Wei's kingdom involved a massive administrative effort to produce monthly KTs and seasonal budgets, and I'm sure the Miao kingdom was similar).

To try to get this thread back on track: every character mattered in a well-run kingdom last version, and that looks set to stay the same if not become even more true in the new version.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby SCZhuge13 » 03 Feb 2017, 00:58

Sir Ebrum wrote:I can attest that Chen Wei's kingdom involved a massive administrative effort to produce monthly KTs and seasonal budgets...


Oh god, I'm having PTSD flashbacks Ebrum. Help!
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Han1977 » 10 Feb 2017, 04:26

Since we know nothing about the enemy, maybe my idea is worthless. :D

If they don't have any commander with navy skill and any ship, then maybe it's a good idea to force a naval battle against them.

With -20 penalty => 0 melee attack, 0 range attack and 0 defense, no matter how bad our troop is (low number of troop in each unit and 0 training level), as long as we put someone with navy to lead them, they can't hurt us while we can hurt them. I'm not sure whether it is possible or not, someone need to check the map and think about it, I think we have a good chance to keep them in the river forever.

Force them to retreat and return with better preparation. Or at least make it takes longer time for them to reach Wan.

The only problem is, we need to dispatch our army earlier. Because it takes us at least 2 turns to enter the river, while they could enter the river as early as the 1st turn.

And if we want to stop them from crossing the river, we need to position our naval unit where that unit's zone of control blocked their army => 2 turns to enter the river and maybe 1 turn to get a good position.

So... maybe it's kind of gambling and since I lost many battles before by taking too much risk, you could throw this idea to the thrash bin. But if you think we could gamble an officers or two + some units of troop. We could dispatch some of our troop this KT.

Use that troop to block the river and buy some time, while we draft and train better troop.

ADD:: I'm thinking maybe dispatching 3 unit 10(0) troop, led by officer with navy, will be enough to block the river. Considered them lost if it is a wrong calculation. But if it's working then it will be cool. That's what I thought.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Kun Tiao » 10 Feb 2017, 16:28

For me, not that KTs had been a nightmare, not at all. Not that less KTs is bad. Though less KTs might mean less decisive kingdom actions?
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Xu Yuan » 11 Feb 2017, 20:26

Alright folks, now that we know what Ranks are and how they effect A Lot in this version we will need to be rather conservative at first with how we dish out the ranks. We are looking for suggestions and how to use as many officers in Rank 1 as we can while maintaining a semblance of a budget.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby ShadInquis » 11 Feb 2017, 23:09

Well, let's get the bad stuff out of the way. We have, if I count correctly, 46 officers in Wan. The bare minimum they need to be paid is 920 gold. We start with 3000. So salaries are really going to strain the city unless few heavily invest in more cash-making building.

Pretty much any action needs rank 1. So
3 training actions: +60 gold.
3 i-net: 60 gold
Contructors: 40 gold
Draft: 20 gold:

At this point have just about used up 1100 gold on salaries. The constructions we wanted are 1750 (mulberry + lower courts), the draft of 21 troops would cost 189 gold, already becoming impossible. Not to mention we wanted to craft weapons. So some compromises need to be made in our plans.


Overall, this is due to the very good response we got in the pre-game. Nearly 50 officers is not something we are likely to see stuck in a single city in the main game. For the pre-game, I do wonder if it may make sense to give the city a free pass/discount (like 50% of the base wages paid by Luo Yang)? Otherwise the KTs may be very very limited.
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