KT ideas thread

KT ideas thread

Postby ShadInquis » 23 Jan 2017, 13:56

Since it has been a while and we have a new "beta" ruleset which we are unfamiliar with, I thought it may be worthwhile to have a thread where more technically minded people can list more specific ideas for the first KT for Wan.

Useful Info:
City starting stats:
viewtopic.php?f=289&t=13029#p1463649
Rules:
viewtopic.php?f=289&t=13026#p1463635

Feel free to share your suggestions, agreeing or disagreeing with those put forward by others, but make sure they are realistic.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby ShadInquis » 23 Jan 2017, 13:56

Below is the current draft of the possible actions in the KT. This will be updated as people voice suggestions, and support or argue against them.

Legend:
Blue: Means the idea is basically universally supported/is not really possible to argue against
Green: Means the idea has received noticeable support, but detail may change
Italic An idea that has not yet received either support or rejection
Red: The idea is hotly contested. Does not mean it's bad, just that there is a debate.

Salaries
Not in the main rules in the Simzhou thread, but a v6 draft is found here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12647
Basically any officer is paid at least 20, and those doing useful things things are paid 40.


Admin Actions
Develop I-Net::All we need is 3 officers with decent Int to max out nd it is beneficial.
* Assign 3 officers to get 250/250
Spy: I'm going to start this one is blue because there really is no debate that it needs to be done
*Assign at least 1 officer to Spy on Xiang Yang
Possible officers:
Ju-long [Spy (e), Stealth, Int 90, Pol 60, Cha 70]
Sōng Fēishǔ [Spy, Stealth (e), Int 80, Pol 60, Cha 80]

Arson/Riot/Sap/Recruit Agents Not possible until spy info has been acquired
PatrolPossible but not likely due to troops requirement and no training.
Searches and RecruitmentsPossible but not likely, since we should have enough officers and building slots.

KT Actions
Change Government Type:
Construct:
* Build Lower Courts (750 Gold, 1 Season) (Green as speople seem to be up for that)
*Build Mulberry Orchard (1000 Gold, 1 Seasons)
*Build Iron Mines (1250 Gold 2 Seasons)
Defense: Not needed right now.
Demolish: Ehm, no.
Draft
[Any officer] Draft 21(?) troops (Cost 189 Gold + 189 Food)
Hire
Market
Merge/Split N/A the first turn
Mobilize Probably not in the first turn
Produce
Wu Ye Produce 30(?) Bows total cost 390 gold.
Cost: 20 x 0.68 gold = 12.9 rounds to 13
Capacity: 106

Send Gold/Transfer N/A for the pregame
Staff
Train
Jiang Yan trains 21(0) Troops. +100 training
Fei Lai trains 20(0) Troops. +100 training
Dai Ren trains 20(0) Troops. +99 training
Last edited by ShadInquis on 23 Jan 2017, 20:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Suicide Fox » 23 Jan 2017, 14:25

Officer List
list of all current officers in the OI, ending at nurgles_herald (PS I hate everyone that didn't format like the list below)

Bai Zheng 60-45-55-90-65 Acumen, Architect, Commercialist, Farmer, Investigator, Scribe
Cai Bin 5-10-60-95-85 Articulate. Negotiator(e), Propaganda, Networking, Rumor, Wealth, Riot
Dai Ren 87-71-80-20-30 Counter, Fortunate, Leader(e), Loyalty, Reversal, Volley
Dao Lang 12-10-80-90-76 Acumen, Architect, Charming, Farmer, Logistics
Ding Ma 70-73-84-50-35 Ambush(e), Arson, Breeder, Military Engineer, Reversal, Stealth, Weaponmaster
Fei Lai 90-84-42-31-31 Ambush, Blitz, Fortunate (e), Formation, Leader
Fu Zhi 80-25-80-25-80 Formation, Logistics, Mobility, Terrain, Wile
Huang Wu 80-21-82-21-80, Ambush, Arson, Cunning, Mobility, Volley, Wile
Jia Chun 80-71-72-41-60 Aid, Medic, Mobility (e), Mystic, Scout
Jia Liang 20-20-70-90-80, Administration (e), Articulate, Civil Engineer, Fortunate, Propaganda
Jian Bian 75-75-80-15-65 Arrowstorm, Counter, Cunning(e), Formation, Volley
Jiang Yan 90-80-60-30-30 Counter, Leader(e), Loyalty, Missile, Valor, Volley
Jin Zhi 50-85-70-65-50 Aid, Duelist, Fortunate, Reversal, Valor, Weaponmaster (e)
Jing Yi 80-80-60-40-60 Aid, Ambush, Arson, Loyalty (e), Raid, Stealth, Valor
Ju-long 30-60-90-60-70 Spy(e), Mystic, Medic, Stealth, Arson, Riot
Kung Huang 45-35-70-80-80 | Skills: Charming, Fortunate, Negotiator, Networking (e), Scribe
Ky Rah 30-85-70-30-80 Arson, Duelist, Raid, Stealth, Valor, Weaponmaster(e)
Li Jun 90-60-70-30-60 Aid, Blitz, Charge, Leader, Scout, Vehemence
Liao Ju 87-70-75-37-30 Arrowstorm, Counter, Leader, Missile, Navy, Reversal, Volley
Liu Shentong 70-90-60-30-60 Duelist, Navy, Raid, Stealth, Valor, Weaponmaster(e)
Lü You 70-90-62-16-65 Charge, Duelist (e), Trample, Valour, Weaponmaster
Ma Zang 80-70-40-40-80 Aid, Inspire, Leader, Loyalty, Vehemence
Old Lady Pan 9-12-21-64-68 Artisan (e), Charming, Medic, Wealth
Qiyang Feng 40-40-90-40-80 Articulate, Medic (e), Mystic, Networking, Reversal
Shenmi Xiang 58-57-90-58-57 Breeder; Civil Engineer; Craftsman; Fortunate; Invent; Wealth (e)
Sima Dan 40-35-90-78-60 Counter, Siegecraft, Strategics, Tactician [e], Terrain
Shi Jie 32-4-72-72-92 | Articulate, Breeder, Charming, Networking, Propaganda, Rumor, Wealth (e)
Shou Shen 60-90-70-10-70 Artisan, Craftsman (e), Duelist, Invent, Wealth, Weaponmaster
Sōng Fēishǔ 60-40-80-60-80 Acumen, Breeder, Investigator, Propaganda, Reversal, Spy, Stealth(e)
Wai Be 40-40-76-88-60 Acumen; Administration; Commercialist; Fortunate; Negotiator
Wu Ye 18-74-86-64-70 Mobility, Invent, Craftsman (e), Tactician, Arrowstorm
Xi Jian 33-31-90-72-70 Cunning, Reversal, Riot, Rumor, Tactician, Wile
Xu Bao 65-80-80-40-50 Arson, Artisan, Craftsman (e), Logistics, Military Engineer, Weaponmaster
Zhou Liang 30-80-70-70-70 Acumen, Charming, Duelist(e), Fortunate, Weaponmaster
Last edited by Suicide Fox on 23 Jan 2017, 14:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Xu Yuan » 23 Jan 2017, 14:29

Neat idea ShadInquis! We've been told that the first KT will have some "special payment" method, so we may not need to worry about paying officers the full amount for the first KT, until we know how that is actually decided though, it makes planning a little tricky. I did not know that there were draft documents on salaries, good research! So if those are held as legitimate to the pre-game as well that's a relief. It's good to see you put the universal options as well.

My thoughts from a civil perspective is to increase our tax income/harvest and the best path I see to do that is with the Court system.

Lower Courts: 750 Gold, 1 Person, 1 Season and appreciable increase in the amount of income/harvest and a great place to put either Wai Be/Bai Zheng and/or Dao Lang/Bai Zheng with Commercialist or Farmer.

750 Gold seems a cheap price for what we potentially gain out of it and opens the way to the Central Courts and if we could get further info. on government types than changing to Law and Order in a year may not be such a bad thing since it currently is Iron Fist which doesn't look to be doing many favors.
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Items: Black Onyx Elephant Pendant (+1 Int, +1 Pol, +1 Cha), Book of Rites (+2 Pol), Classic of Filial Piety (+2 Pol)
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby cjh1k2004 » 23 Jan 2017, 14:33

As someone playing an archer general - there are quite a few of us here, so maybe getting more bows out in the army might be a good idea. Volley spam tactics were a favourite of the V5 kingdom I was in, we could consider that if we're fighting a numerically superior force.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Xe of Greed » 23 Jan 2017, 14:54

Iron Fist makes drafting troops slightly cheaper. That's one good thing for out situation.

Arms are pretty expensive. I'd think twice about producing too many, even with someone like Nurgle's PC around.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Suicide Fox » 23 Jan 2017, 15:18

SF Suggestions

TL;DR
#1 Priority: I-net & Spy (to know what we are up against)
#2 Priority: Military>Drafting>Splitting Troops>Training>Crafting Armaments
#3 Priority: Food (will need to feed troops)


#1 Priority
Already covered by Shad in OP

#2 Priority
Draft
Only one officer may draft. Optimal candidates below:

Jia Liang 20-20-70-90-80, Administration (e)
Possible Draft Limit = 120
Wai Be 40-40-76-88-60 Acumen; Administration; Commercialist; Fortunate; Negotiator
Draft Limit = 90

Any Char with War or Cha higher than 80. Probably won't need nearly this much as it will be too difficult to train and feed them by the time we actually fight. Circumstantial, but I still feel its important.

Training
1-3 Officer may train
Training gain is equal to ((Lead + War + [Leader bonus]) * 10 / [unit size]) + [any building bonus]

Dai Ren 87-71-80-20-30 Counter, Fortunate, Leader(e), Loyalty, Reversal, Volley
Total "training" score: 198
Jiang Yan 90-80-60-30-30 Counter, Leader(e), Loyalty, Missile, Valor, Volley
Total "training" score: 210
Fei Lai 90-84-42-31-31 Ambush, Blitz, Fortunate (e), Formation, Leader
Total "training" score: 204
Ma Zang 80-70-40-40-80 Aid, Inspire, Leader, Loyalty, Vehemence
Total "training" score: 180
Liao Ju 87-70-75-37-30 Arrowstorm, Counter, Leader, Missile, Navy, Reversal, Volley
Total "training" score: 187
Li Jun 90-60-70-30-60 Aid, Blitz, Charge, Leader, Scout, Vehemence
Total "training" score: 180

Personal advice: Split the final drafted droops into 3 big units and have them trained (largest to smallest) by: Jiang Yan, Fei Lai, Dai Ren

--OR--
go for max training early

Jiang Yan trains 21(0) Troops. +100 training
Fei Lai trains 20(0) Troops. +100 training
Dai Ren trains 20(0) Troops. +99 training

Not sure if this is "optimal" to get the training numbers up there but it would give us 120 units at [near] 100 training by the end of turn 2


Crafting Armaments

too lazy u guys got this

#3 Priority

too lazy u guys got this
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Bradums » 23 Jan 2017, 15:38

This is all obviously new to us, given the new system, but here are some general thoughts I have:

- I think the first turn's priority should be investing in our future income. With a current troop max of 1000, and our own garrison at 100, it wouldn't make a ton of sense to bulk up our troop count right now. We'd just be paying for something we can't use devoting a lot of our resources and income to something we aren't going to make use of properly anytime soon. There. Edited, because I felt that was more appropriate.

- I agree with XY. Lower Courts seems like an awesome first step in construction, as it's both a cheap way to increase our overall resource generation and a gateway to the higher tier buildings.

- I would also wonder if Mulberry Orchards might be a good resource investment. It's slightly less than some of the others (1000 compared to 1250), and provides a bonus to both gold and harvest income. Since we have Mulberry Trees, that seems like the resource that might be easiest to upgrade at first. Cheaper and provides an all-around bonus to gold/food.

- I also agree with Shad's ideas. Spy is definitely needed to get an idea of how to prepare in the coming months, and INet is a valuable resource, especially in our situation. It allows us a sort of initiative, from my experience with it, when anything enters our domain. Sneaky units, enemy armies, etc. The higher the INet, the more options we have to deal with it. Given that we're on the defensive, this seems self-explanatory as to why this is helpful.

- Since both strategies at our disposal involve utilizing range, obviously, bows will be needed at some point. If we do any armament production, bows would be priority uno, in my opinion.
Last edited by Bradums on 23 Jan 2017, 15:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Xe of Greed » 23 Jan 2017, 15:47

If we can only max 61 troops' training a turn, then it would make sense to draft only 20-21 troops this turn and 61 in any turns after. That way we're not losing a ton of gold and food on troops we can't train up.

We already started at 30 bows; what size are we looking for in our units? Seems like we wouldn't need that many more to outfit 2-3 evenly divided units to fit all our generals into the battle.

I wish we had some idea of taxes/harvest without buildings! I'd think limiting ourselves to one building a turn would be a good idea, in case any extra crises' kick up that need a gold response of some sort.

Can officers still donate gold to a kingdom? How soon does a player-kingdom loan need to be paid back? :P
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby cjh1k2004 » 23 Jan 2017, 15:49

Xe of Greed wrote:If we can only max 61 troops' training a turn, then it would make sense to draft only 20-21 troops this turn and 61 in any turns after. That way we're not losing a ton of gold and food on troops we can't train up.

We already started at 30 bows; what size are we looking for in our units? Seems like we wouldn't need that many more to outfit 2-3 evenly divided units to fit all our generals into the battle.

I wish we had some idea of taxes/harvest without buildings! I'd think limiting ourselves to one building a turn would be a good idea, in case any extra crises' kick up that need a gold response of some sort.

Can officers still donate gold to a kingdom? How soon does a player-kingdom loan need to be paid back? :P


I second the gold donation thing, or just not taking salary (since most of us have no gold to donate). But then, it's always been against the rules to do something like that, right...? At least I remember this was banned all the way since I started here, so.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Xe of Greed » 23 Jan 2017, 15:52

cjh1k2004 wrote:
Xe of Greed wrote:If we can only max 61 troops' training a turn, then it would make sense to draft only 20-21 troops this turn and 61 in any turns after. That way we're not losing a ton of gold and food on troops we can't train up.

We already started at 30 bows; what size are we looking for in our units? Seems like we wouldn't need that many more to outfit 2-3 evenly divided units to fit all our generals into the battle.

I wish we had some idea of taxes/harvest without buildings! I'd think limiting ourselves to one building a turn would be a good idea, in case any extra crises' kick up that need a gold response of some sort.

Can officers still donate gold to a kingdom? How soon does a player-kingdom loan need to be paid back? :P


I second the gold donation thing, or just not taking salary (since most of us have no gold to donate). But then, it's always been against the rules to do something like that, right...? At least I remember this was banned all the way since I started here, so.


I think you have to take a salary. No clue on loans, though, the only ones I remember was kingdoms giving gold to officers for items.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Bradums » 23 Jan 2017, 16:01

Yeah, kingdoms can give gold, but officers can't give gold back to kingdoms. And officers HAVE to have a salary, even a basic one. There's no refusing payment or being a nice guy, they get a salary no matter what.

I think it's a way to prevent any misuse or home-teaming.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Fa Zheng » 23 Jan 2017, 16:08

Yeah but this is a pregame, we are all being put into the same city and isn't this to see how the turns and all work and give us all something to do. I'm sure an admin/GM will clarify for us but I for one am not worried about receiving any salary.

Also, I agree with getting gold/food first rather than conscripting. Again might be OOC info but the point of this is to get things working not destroy us in two turns.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby Suicide Fox » 23 Jan 2017, 16:27

Xe brings up a good point about drafting / training
Edit: included link to Xe post

(by the way my assumptions are this game is only going to last 1-2 game months tops so I'm basing my suggestions 100% around the military and surviving the encounter vs the rebel army)

Should draft 21 soldiers this turn
Train 61 to (100) this turn
Train 61 (100) next turn
Draft 61 next turn (depending on size of army we are against, if we can feed them, etc)

Additional option
Hire [Military]
Effect: Hires veterans or mercenaries to add to the garrison. They come at a much higher price, but their experience may be invaluable. Does not reduce the city's Population. Hired troops start at 60 Training.
Cost: 30 gold and 30 food per troop.
# of Officers: 1
Limitations: The Hiring officer may only Hire a number of troops equal to his Cha/2.

Can hire a 20(60) unit for 600 food, 600 gold if we REALLY need to
Last edited by Suicide Fox on 23 Jan 2017, 17:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: KT ideas thread

Postby ShadInquis » 23 Jan 2017, 16:42

Put people's suggestions into the big post, so it's in one place. Notes:

*Bows seem like a fairly cheap thing, so it should be quite easy to outfit the army with stuff (bows/heavy arms, maybe some cav/horse cav)
*Like the idea of Lower Courts building
*Also want to throw in the idea of Iron Mines. The thing about those is that in addition to the economic benefits, they make building arms cheaper.
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