Tactics Discussion

For the tactical-minded.

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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby Xeniphon » 14 Dec 2012, 16:01

No big deal, after all if these were PCs we were seeing in control of the battle your observation and ridicule would be 100% on target.
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby JohannXIV » 14 Dec 2012, 17:24

I DISAGREE! Look at Gongsun Yue's stats, look at them long and hard. Now look at the other generals in the alliance. GSY is a third stringer at best. Now whom would you foist the ram off on if you expected heavy resistance in the field before needing to bypass two gates?

Rams do fixed damage, so while the siege skill would help, a ram or catapult is GSY's path to functionally. Now if Cao Zhen showed up, he'd get the ram because he is a siege monster.
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby Aureal » 14 Dec 2012, 22:41

And do you really think that Gongsun Zan and Yuan Shao are just going to happily share equipment with each other as if they're best buddies? :P
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby Dong Zhou » 15 Dec 2012, 13:11

Aureal wrote:And do you really think that Gongsun Zan and Yuan Shao are just going to happily share equipment with each other as if they're best buddies? :P


but it would be for the greater good! :P
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby Lionheart » 15 Dec 2012, 13:44

Dong Zhou wrote:
Aureal wrote:And do you really think that Gongsun Zan and Yuan Shao are just going to happily share equipment with each other as if they're best buddies? :P


but it would be for the greater good! :P


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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby Kongming999 » 15 Dec 2012, 14:02

Lionheart wrote:TAU RACE IS MASTER RACE

Dat 40k reference <3 Personally, I think white scars are amazing, but whatever :wink:
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby General Yuan » 17 Dec 2012, 17:25

Shouldn't the Alliance be moving to take advantage of the weakening of the force near the gate? Just a thought.
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby Sun Tang » 17 Dec 2012, 18:30

The alliance forces seem to be aware of Liu Biao's attack, seems coordinated, like they wanted to draw out as many Luo Yang forces (including Lu Bu) away from Luo Yang. Seems like the balance has again shifted. I dont know what resources Dong Zhuo has but he needs to hold Hu Lao Gate as long as he can so that he can repel Liu Biao's Luo Yang attack. The longer Hu Lao Gate holds, the easier(not necessarily easy) it will be to put down Liu Biaos advances and refocus on Hu Lao gate.

I say keep everyone else at Hu Lao gate except Lu Bu, let him rush home and try blitz 2.0!
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby webby » 18 Dec 2012, 15:51

JohannXIV wrote:I DISAGREE! Look at Gongsun Yue's stats, look at them long and hard. Now look at the other generals in the alliance. GSY is a third stringer at best. Now whom would you foist the ram off on if you expected heavy resistance in the field before needing to bypass two gates?

Rams do fixed damage, so while the siege skill would help, a ram or catapult is GSY's path to functionally. Now if Cao Zhen showed up, he'd get the ram because he is a siege monster.


OK so Gungsun Yue's functionality as the ram holder, can also be looked at in the negative for the same reasons that you list. Given Yue's stats it would be bad to give someone so poor a piece of vital equipment. If he would have been hit by Lu Bu's Blitz, bye bye rammy! (Well looking back on it that blitz attack seemed contrived, doesn't matter, fits the story line.) He could have had a better functionality as fodder, if done correctly. Better for him to get stomped then Cao Ren, or Huang Zhong, or Zhang He. Yuan Shao has done nothing yet, and so could easily have carried the ram. Because the ram is an attachment, it could be dropped at any time, and defended.
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby webby » 18 Dec 2012, 16:17

Sun Tang wrote:The alliance forces seem to be aware of Liu Biao's attack, seems coordinated, like they wanted to draw out as many Luo Yang forces (including Lu Bu) away from Luo Yang. Seems like the balance has again shifted. I dont know what resources Dong Zhuo has but he needs to hold Hu Lao Gate as long as he can so that he can repel Liu Biao's Luo Yang attack. The longer Hu Lao Gate holds, the easier(not necessarily easy) it will be to put down Liu Biaos advances and refocus on Hu Lao gate.

I say keep everyone else at Hu Lao gate except Lu Bu, let him rush home and try blitz 2.0!


Read up on the alliance roleplay thread. Liu Biao's attack is coordinated, Yuan Shao shows the proof of it. Read from the beginning and you'll see more than that.
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby JohannXIV » 19 Dec 2012, 02:01

webby wrote:OK so Gungsun Yue's functionality as the ram holder, can also be looked at in the negative for the same reasons that you list. Given Yue's stats it would be bad to give someone so poor a piece of vital equipment. If he would have been hit by Lu Bu's Blitz, bye bye rammy! (Well looking back on it that blitz attack seemed contrived, doesn't matter, fits the story line.) He could have had a better functionality as fodder, if done correctly. Better for him to get stomped then Cao Ren, or Huang Zhong, or Zhang He. Yuan Shao has done nothing yet, and so could easily have carried the ram. Because the ram is an attachment, it could be dropped at any time, and defended.


His being a schlub is the major reason for giving him the ram. Destroying his unit doesn't mean the ram goes away, it just gets dropped on the turf until some else picks it up. Here's the thing, all troops cost a substantial amount of money to draft and train, which means being cannon fodder does make sense as an investment of resources. Zhang He and Huang Zhong should have been the ones fighting Lu Bu because they were best equipped to do so. The Lu Bu Blitz was, in fact, not contrived but a bad day situation for the Alliance. Had the Blitz not been as horridly successful people instead would be talking about the 60+ damage the SimAtt did to Lu Bu earlier in the round. Lu Bu's unit nearly got wrecked with a massive 4 way smack down.

Giving the a good unit the ram complicates things and ruins their otherwise good set-up. Rams are for Seige builds and chumps and here's why:
Siege Rams
Once equipped, the equipping unit suffers from -10 Melee Attack, -10 Ranged Attack & -10 Defence. Furthermore, they will lose 3MP. Units with Siege Rams do 25 damage when attacking Gates and Walls, potentially breaking them down.


So any Light Infantry would have their attack and defense cut by a third, and their mobility would be down by either a third or a half depending on their unit size. Archers would have their attack and defense cut in half, and their mobility would also fall off at a similar rate. The chump got the ram because he was the least useful at anything and everything else.

Besides, Gongsun Zan is never ever going to give a frienemy an expensive piece of equipment just because. Long story short, having GSY impale himself on Lu Bu is a complete waste of resources and doesn't really even slow down Lu Bu's path-o-destruction en route to the other generals. He gets the ram because he's the least equipped to handle normal combat so taking the crippling penalties to his unit's att/def and movement aren't going to dull the edge of his aluminum sword.

I don't wanna pull the 'new guy' card on you, but you don't realize what a huge investment of resources the Alliance members have on the table. None of these guys have more than 2-3 cities and all the troops are well trained and equipped. Xeni could explain it to you, though Ebrum would be the best qualified to hammer piles and piles and piles of numbers into a text book volume of rationalization.

Just for comparison, in v5 we had lots of battles, quite a few siege battles. And in that time we saw about a dozen or so pre-built siege ladders and rams, most were the much more flimsy 'field' ladders or rams (which are gone for v6). There was only one instance of a catapult even being deployed and that was only because the kingdom in question had the Invent(Masterskill) guy who got it built in a single turn instead of three. Siege equipment are huge investments for kingdoms but huge penalties for the units using them. Therefore, it make sense to either put it one a Siege build general OR the guy who's least likely to try to get involved in the fray and waste your money.
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby Aureal » 19 Dec 2012, 03:21

JohannXIV wrote:His being a schlub is the major reason for giving him the ram. Destroying his unit doesn't mean the ram goes away, it just gets dropped on the turf until some else picks it up.


Destroying his unit means the ram gets destroyed.

The Lu Bu Blitz was, in fact, not contrived but a bad day situation for the Alliance.


...

Just for comparison, in v5 we had lots of battles, quite a few siege battles. And in that time we saw about a dozen or so pre-built siege ladders and rams, most were the much more flimsy 'field' ladders or rams (which are gone for v6).


I'd say the reason field ladders were used instead of siege was that they were free to make, comparable enough in quality that the difference wasn't likely to mean anything, and could often be created close enough to the walls that there was little to no time in which the unit was actually carrying it and thus being penalized by it.
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby JohannXIV » 19 Dec 2012, 03:52

Huh. Didn't realize the ram went ::pifft:: if the unit gets wiped. Looks like I need to spend another afternoon with the battle rules.

As for the Lu Bu Blitz, dues ex machina is legit this is pregame it was stated that things would happen to move the plot along accordingly. Like anyone believes that Liu Biao could stay in ambush long enough to sneak all the way north.

My point still stands, giving the ram to a good general negates that general's effectiveness. Better to let the bum limp along than the heroic hero.
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby webby » 19 Dec 2012, 13:18

JohannXIV wrote:Huh. Didn't realize the ram went ::pifft:: if the unit gets wiped. Looks like I need to spend another afternoon with the battle rules.


I knew this, it always has been this way. Oh by the way, I am not as new to this as you presume. I played before, but became discouraged, V4, uuug! I was yangzhou357, from Bei Baorong's kingdom. I only made another account because I couldn't remember my password.

JohannXIV wrote:As for the Lu Bu Blitz, dues ex machina is legit this is pregame it was stated that things would happen to move the plot along accordingly. Like anyone believes that Liu Biao could stay in ambush long enough to sneak all the way north.


I think I said that about the Lu Bu attack, works the storyline. Unless I missed something Liu Biao doesn't have the ambush skill, and is not moving in ambush. Hung Gai and Cai Mao have ambush, but it was not said that they were moving under ambush.

JohannXIV wrote:My point still stands, giving the ram to a good general negates that general's effectiveness. Better to let the bum limp along than the heroic hero.


A good general would know that they could drop the ram, and gain back all of the penalty losses of carrying the ram, without losing the ram. The ram would still be on the battlefield, just not under any ones control, until it is picked up.
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Re: Tactics Discussion

Postby webby » 19 Dec 2012, 13:24

Oh, I see something! Sorta cheap, but, I'm going for it.
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