PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Xeniphon » 30 May 2013, 20:27

I believe that one of the main things staff wishes to fix about treaties is keeping them from lasting long periods of time and establishing fixed "blocks" of kingdoms as we have seen in past versions. To make it so breaking a treaty hurt that much would encourage the establishment of long term alliances more firmly.
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Sun Tang » 30 May 2013, 20:51

....or you could just make treaties and alliances all shorter terms 3,6,9 and 12 month terms and dish out PR accordingly at the end of a successfully honored treaty/alliance... or negatively if a treaty/alliance is not honored. Perhaps even give 1/2 the PR up front...and the rest at the end of the term of the treaty/alliance would keep them from being broken. (round down for treaties with odd months). Or just simply give +1 PR each month or season (3 pr) if the sim is going that route.

+1 PR for each month the treaty is honored sounds good.

3 month treaty? 3PR.
6 months? 6 PR.
9 months...9 PR.
12 months, 12 PR.


I like the Idea of +PR gains for sending military aid and it could also apply to food or economic aid perhaps, even armaments. I do not like the "drift" idea though. Maybe i did not understand it though.

I think -PR would apply to botched spy (-3 pr)/riot (-6PR)/arson attempts(-9pr), refusing military aid for an ally that is being attacked (not attacking) (-6PR), breaking a treaty of course, (- length of said treaty x2 PR) recruiting an officer of a kingdom with an active treaty (-6PR), inadvertent damage of a cities architecture or facilities. (-3PR for each instance).
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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Mat » 30 May 2013, 21:15

I still don't think simply having a treaty should result in a PR gain. I could see giving a PR gain at the end of a treaty (rather than each month as you've suggested) to reflect an honored non-aggression pact, but a monthly bonus is just more to keep track of and doesn't really reflect activity that should be lauded, in my opinion.

Most of the -PR suggestions you've made I like. Strongbad pointed out how things are seldom black and white, but the perspective of the populace would likely be so regarding most of what you've mentioned. Not sure I'd give a penalty for recruiting an officer from an allied kingdom, though.
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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Xeniphon » 30 May 2013, 21:53

What about just giving PR for active efforts to uphold treaties with inactive things like not attacking simply being it's own reward?

So you would gain PR for giving assistance and lose it for breaking the treaty. The gain and loss would depend on the degree. Yeah it means non-aggression pacts would suffer from it but if we make treaties that give PR actually require active effort to give it we can cut down on useless treaties made just for PR.

Thoughts?
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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Kakirot83 » 30 May 2013, 23:12

Doesn't this still encourage you to stay in treaties forever? I'm missing the part where I want to ever break it? :P
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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Xeniphon » 30 May 2013, 23:36

That depends which idea you are refering to Kak....
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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Sun Tang » 31 May 2013, 00:09

Xeni, the issue i see with one aspect of your proposal is what Kakirot is saying.

People might create treaties and stay in them indefinitely, with the hopes of eventually being able to perform actions such as military assistance to increase their PR. It just seems a little counter productive unfortunately.

Does a treaty/alliance cap sound like something feasible? Perhaps limit the amount to 4 at a given time per kingdom? Or perhaps create some sort of system of diminishing returns if you have x amount of active treaties?
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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Kakirot83 » 31 May 2013, 00:17

Xeniphon wrote:That depends which idea you are refering to Kak....


Actually, all that is being said is when you should gain PR, not when you lose it, or how much is lost.

Let's give an example. I make an alliance for a year, and whether I go through the whole year and gain PR there, or perhaps I gain PR per month, the question is, did I gain as much or more PR then I would be losing by breaking the treaty, or signing another treaty and breaking that one.

If I gain say 6 PR for the treaty at the end of that year, sign a new one, and one month in, am I going to lose 12 PR for breaking a treaty, and so soon? Cuz if I am, I guess I need to stay in another year, just to offset if I break any treaties.

Now, if I gained 6, and I sign a new one, and 2 months in, I'm apparently only going to lose 3 PR, then I guess I can stab someone in the back, and not lose out on the entire year I was good. Now, there is only a tiny little hop to overcome to actually break that treaty. If not, I guess any treaty I sign, I have to commit to, and then of course, people will know when I'm likely to attack, after all, why won't I sign the new treaty again? Oh yeah, cuz I'm going to invade you, good thing I can't surprise you. Ever.
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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Kakirot83 » 31 May 2013, 01:46

Ok, looking above, all I did was point out my problems, or where I disagree, how about I give it some serious thought, and actually give some ideas, huh?

My honest opinion, is we should have a PR system. The truth is, we shouldn't know much about it. What do I mean by that? Well, just with about every game ever, once you know the mechanics of it, you try to take the best route you can. Enough people here, are going to sit there, and weigh the pros and cons, min max the hell out of the game, and then whoever figures it out first, just gets copied, because everyone has to follow suit, or be left In the dust.

To me, PR should be what manages your actions, but you shouldn't calculate your actions based on some mystical number you want, it should just come from doing your actions. Almost, like random weather or events would be. You should be feeling around, stumbling at times, to be who you want to be. Now, you could always have a +/- scale, to allow people that good/evil, famous/infamous kind of scale, but nothing says you have to have the 'rewards' be the same. Take rank out of the picture, PR should not affect your rank. Kingdom size should be what governs that, you know it, I know, and Zorak knows it.

In the novel or history, the bigger you were, the more crap you could pull. Yuan Shu declared himself emperor, and where did it get him? Meanwhile three kingdoms came around, and all this sudden, three people could declare themselves emperor, and for the most part, get away with it for a good while. Yeah, only one is going to win, but you get big enough, start taking those liberties.

Back to PR. What you want PR to be, is something to guide actions, and of course, prevent wholesale bloodletting of everyone. Fair enough. Why I said have the good/evil scale, +/-, is, I know people, someone, has said it before, but being evil should have rewards too.

Good is like respect, evil is life fear. You don't have to like me, but if I bury 10,000 people alive, you should probably fear me. Let's be fair, that might matter in some places. If me coming makes you crap yourself, I think that might be a good thing to have sometimes. Now, since it would be easier to become evil, just make the benefits be lesser. Sure, people would say 'but then why wouldn't we all be god, if there are better benefits?' Good point. Maybe because it should be HARDER. Since you won't know what to do as much, maybe just letting everyone go all the time, isn't going to get the job done. Maybe upholding every treaty isn't going to help. But maybe breaking one can hurt you.

To me, PR should seem somewhat fickle in a way, something we can't easily predict, and map out, but something we can painstakingly try to learn from, and guide our actions from there. And you know, if we figure it out, and can measure it, hopefully it takes awhile, so we don't have time to break the game, say, maybe two years in real life to crack the code? :wink:

That's just my two cents. 8-)
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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Memento » 31 May 2013, 03:22

Of course, there is the obvious problem with that.

It makes the PR system feel arbitrary, or like favoritism, or like bias.

Not to mention, it risks turning simRTK into a giant Skinner box. You probably won't like the results.
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Re: PR Problems? (Discussing the PR System)

Postby Kakirot83 » 31 May 2013, 04:05

Or I could just have faith in the staff of this site, and I'd rather put my faith in them, then to watch the PR system from last game make 654,933 Liu Bei's again. :lol:
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