[V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Sun Tang » 01 Jun 2013, 01:13

Good point, but shouldn't it specifically be noted as a relevant skill in some fashion in the probe movement description portion of the battle rules? The only use for scout evolves nearly entirely around the probe movement action, but there is not a mention of it in the battle rules. I know there are "relevant stats" listed for things but since there are not any "relevant skills", listed (only required), the only way for a person (especially a noob like myself) to know of the use of scout to benefit probe movement, would be to look somewhere else entirely, the skills section. It is pretty minor thing, but i felt it was relevant hehe. :lol:
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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Han Shao » 06 Jun 2013, 02:49

Does pillaging have a purely 'beneficial' outcome to the user or can it be used to harm other kingdoms?

IE: Hurting income/population by killing taxpayers, hurting food production by killing farmers, hurting PR through repeated demonstrations of one's inability to protect their citizens.
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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Lionheart » 06 Jun 2013, 09:12

Han Shao wrote:Does pillaging have a purely 'beneficial' outcome to the user or can it be used to harm other kingdoms?

IE: Hurting income/population by killing taxpayers, hurting food production by killing farmers, hurting PR through repeated demonstrations of one's inability to protect their citizens.


Bolding that last part...I'm almost 100% sure there's no PR penalty for that. However, that doesn't mean that another ruler can't use that as a casus beli to invade another ruler, PR be damned. As for the other stuff, I don't think so, but I'll leave that up to an admin to decide.
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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby madmarcus » 18 Jun 2013, 18:17

Ambush is activated by an enemy moving to melee range. Could an archer unit ambush from two spaces away?
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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Xeniphon » 18 Jun 2013, 18:53

madmarcus wrote:Ambush is activated by an enemy moving to melee range. Could an archer unit ambush from two spaces away?


Afraid not, I'd like to see that worked in and have suggested it several times but with no luck.
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Xeniphon » 01 Nov 2013, 15:09

I thought of something recently and figured I would toss it out there....

Is a transport unit always a transport unit or are there situations where it would become a light infantry unit? I can think of two situations imediately; dropping off supplies at the destination but heading straight back to their initial location and being attacked and deciding to drop their goods on the ground to fight or flee rather than keep them. In these events I could see them either becoming simply an "empty" transport unit or a light infantry unit with a goods attachment on the ground/the goods given to the target location. In the case of handing off supplies this could be to a city/town or to a unit(s) via the Resupply command, in these situations there doesn't seem to be a benefit either way that outweighs the other since returning as a light infantry unit would be slower but safer than returning as a transport unit. For the situation involving deciding to drop supplies to fight.... This would be a little more advantagous since it would allow the unit to fight off an enemy unencombered by the transport unit stats (its a bad idea to let players get around the poor stats with no disadvantage) but then it struck me that if this was permitted the only way for the goods to be picked up again would be as a "Goods Attachment" on a light infantry unit rather than it becoming a transport again. As this solution would slow and hinder the light infantry unit's ability to fight significantly (plus not allow the use of part of the Logistics skill, assuming they have it) in addition to the unit then counting against the max number of units deployable I think the downside is sufficient to allow us to consider the option seriously.

Regardless of all that we really will need to decide how that works to avoid questions during the game (since at least one person will send a transport to resupply units in combat and will want the transport unit to then fight if possible without the attachment that makes it a transport unit).
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Xeniphon » 08 Nov 2013, 23:05

Thats right, another transport issue....

If a Transport unit comes across a bit of siege engine on the ground, while a battle is going on nearby for instance, could they add it to their goods section or would they have to leave it since they sort of do and sort of don't have an attachment already?

If not cleared up someone clever might try to send a transport into a battle area to pick up dropped siege engines to return to the transport's kingdom (denying it to the enemy and not encombering their own battle units).
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby OmniGambit » 17 Nov 2013, 12:09

So, this question will sounds dumb (and perhaps is), but theres no more idea of a 'Champion' or 'Duelist' being a part of units? I.E. if someone wants to be the next big thing since Lu Bu, they either need to buff their Lead as well or find something else to do with their weapon arms besides fight? Just curious because I think Ill actually play this iteration for real as my phone no longer sucks and I can, and a character with War as his primary stat was among my concepts, so I want to know how best to proceex before making a decision.

And yes, I know he can balance War-focus with crafting or development instead, Im just curious ;)

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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Kongming999 » 17 Nov 2013, 15:16

If there was a "dedicated duelist" type of character in previous versions, that officer type no longer exists. Every unit on the field is led by a single general (with the exception of advisers), and to my knowledge you can't just have other generals tagging along with your unit.

That being said, however, a duelist is still one of the most popular and exciting builds in the game. If you take Duelist and Weaponmaster with high War, Lead, and Int (in that order) as well as some skills that raise your chances of getting into an ad-hoc duel (Raid, Blitz, etc.) you can still expect to get into a respectable amount of one-on-one fights.

There are plenty of people around here who are more experienced with duelist builds than myself. If you head over to the v6 character creation thread I'm sure they would be more than willing to help you out.
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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Mat » 17 Nov 2013, 19:39

I wouldn't mind seeing the option for attaché officers to help round out a unit, perhaps similar to what was done in RTK11 - the units Int score was a combination of the generals if more than one officer was assigned. This allowed someone like Lu Bu to be harder to trick, since you paired him with Jia Xu. Presumably the latter kept the former from falling prey to ploys. In past versions the CiC was the only person capable of doing this with their single adviser slot. I think it would be best to only allow CiC's to have advisors capable of using ploys, but adding an Int-based officer to a meathead general wouldn't be a bad idea, as far as I can tell.

An attaché or subcommander slot would provide players with more strategic depth for units. You could have a bodyguard to accept duel challenges, and potentially ad-hocs as well. You could have two infantry generals lead a unit as commander and subcommander, sharing skills and making the unit more dynamic. It would also provide a second level of security - if your commander is injured, you can swap in the subcommander and have them take over. Also, if the commander gets killed or captured in a duel, the unit isn't automatically routed.

This system would also allow more PCs to be fielded in a battle. Plus the RP aspects could be awesome - imagine having two oath brothers always fighting side by side in battles? That's some epic bromance right there. ;)

This would also make a lot of those largely useless npcs more useful.

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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Kongming999 » 17 Nov 2013, 19:58

Mat, I second that thought- it would most certainly be an interesting addition to battle rules. Even historically, this concept makes a lot of sense, as in the RotK novel (and just throughout Chinese military records in general), there are many mentions of fujiang or assistant general(s) in addition to the main general heading an army.

Mechanically this would also allow officers to further specialize and completely concentrate on a single aspect of their character (36 int? no problem, just pair yourself with a smarty pants adviser). I'm not sure how difficult this would be to implement when it comes to running battles, but hopefully it shouldn't cause too much extra work on the staff's part.

The only problem I can foresee is that going to battle would become so common that non-combatant officers get screwed over in terms of experience gaining. In RTK 11 PK you can assign a maximum of 2 attache generals to a leading general. This triples the amount of people that could potentially see combat and lets a lot of people earn a lot of experience in a little bit of time. Where does that leave our developers, recruiters, and inventors?

Possible solutions include a) lowering exp gained from battles, or b) giving developers more opportunities to increase their exp output.

But all in all, I see auxiliary officers as an exciting and very plausible addition to battle rules that with a little bit of tweaking could enhance everyone's gaming experience.
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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Mat » 17 Nov 2013, 20:09

A staffer is free to tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think this would actually be that difficult to implement, since the CiC/advisor rules essentially already account for it. The only difference my suggestion would have is that you don't give non-CiC units the ability to use those extra ploys advisors can spam during battles.

This would also allow players more options for feasible battlefield generals. If you wanted to play a heavy-hitting barbarian general with low Int, the chances of him/her getting fielded is going to be slim under most circumstances, because of ploy susceptibility. Right now a general with less than 60 Int isn't likely to get fielded at all.
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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Bradums » 17 Nov 2013, 21:15

I'm not sure how open the staff is to suggestions to mechanics, but I like this idea. It opens a second window for PCs to be included. I can't count how many times people have gotten jaded by the game or their kingdom because they were never sent to battle because they weren't massive in Lead and War. This would allow more utilitarian officers a chance to be included in battles and feel important.

It might make more work in terms of mechanics and running the battles, but if they could add a skill and their secondary stats (Into and maybe even Cha?) to the commander, it would be a huge added layer to battle planning and officer inclusion.
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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby Xeniphon » 17 Nov 2013, 21:21

I've seen this suggested before each version (including a year or more back for this one) and staff have never accepted it. I'll let them explain why if they like, but I can certainly see how this concept would lead more to min-maxing specialized stats/skills since with a second officer comanding the unit you can just add theirs to make up for the areas you had to leave low (creating a "super-general" rather than having to use your wits to make up for each general's shortcommings). I can certainly see how that would actually lead to less inclusion since every ruler would want two massively specialized PCs that complimented eachother over someone who is more of a jack or all trades.

I like getting more people involved in battle, but I don't like how it would affect the mechanics (with the one I mentioned above just beign the least of my concerns).

And Bradums is right, at the moment massive changes to mechanics (and this would affect everything) would mean pushing the game back another year or two at the least and I don't think it would survive it....
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: [V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

Postby White935 » 19 Dec 2013, 19:32

I don't know if its been mentioned, but shouldn't Infantry Mp usage for past 200 unit size be 6, not 5 ? seeing as it follows down a decrease of 1, before jumping to a decrease of 2 on the last slot, while heavy infantry does not, (following the 1 drop per slot, equal to infantry before the last one).
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