V6 Player Wishlist.

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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Marik » 17 Jan 2013, 21:32

It's an old post, and I know this isn't a discussion/argument thread, but I felt the need to reply to Kakirot.

I've always been a firm believer that generals have it the best in this game in terms of growth. Even when their Lead and War are high enough (96+) they still get an insane amount of experience for being in battle (45 Lead, 45 War; or 90 in total). The highest KT action that can compare to that in terms of experience gains are recruiters and plotters, which get 45 exp, if they succeed (even if you lose a battle, you still get your experience).

Using the AP values you listed for a developer and general, I'll just run a sample PT with those. Assuming the general got sent to battle and the developer succeeded in a plot or recruitment, that'd be 90 exp for the general and 45 for the developer for KT actions. The developer could potentially go for training a lower stat (say, Int in the low 70's), which would net about 110 exp; he could also go for actions like Teach Letters and Bazaar which, assuming he has very high enough relevant stats, it'd net 10 exp for each. I'll assume for the sake of simplicity that all these actions succeeded. He can potentially use the last AP to craft, maybe Artisan or Scribe; that'd be 1 exp.

Meanwhile, the general only has enough for either one action, so he'll go with training a lower stat (say, Int in the low 70's again), which would get him about 110 exp. The rest he can spend on crafting too, like Breeding or Craftsman, which would be 2 exp.

To sum it up,

Developer: 175 AP
KT action, 45 exp
Personal Training, 110 exp
Teach Letters, 10 exp
Bazaar, 10 exp
Magistrate 20 exp
Crafting, 1 exp
Total: 196 exp

General: 58 AP
KT action, 90 exp
Personal Training, 110 exp
Crafting, 2 exp
Total: 202 exp

Basically, when the developer gets lucky with his rolls he gets roughly the same amount of experience than a general in battle. The only cases I can see where the general gets screwed over is when his Lead and War are both at base 100, where he'd gain no KT experience; and when he wants to study a skill, in which case, assuming the developer changes two of his lesser exp yielding actions (instead of sacrificing Personal Training) to study a skill too, it'd be 182 exp for the developer and 92 for the general.

So, imho, generals are already good enough as they are (maybe even too good). And that's only comparing them to one of the most AP-heavy builds in the game. They gain a considerably higher amount of experience compared to other character types like strategists and duelists who don't rely on Pol, Zeal, or high exp yield KT actions.



While I'm here I might as well suggest something I've wanted to see for a long while now...
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Sun Tang » 17 Jan 2013, 23:50

Great now I want to comment on your general vs recruter/ developer comments. I will stay on topic, but will say generals don't seem to be used to their full potentials each and every turn as a developer or recruiter would.

I really wish in V6 that there were more options for free officers. Crafting is cool,.but I just feel there should be more choices. I would think it would be cool if a group of players could run a real business, with real income and economics coming into play. Maybe open a non profit driven organization,also, like a temple or shelter or medical office, or be a part of some sort of travelling group that offers services. I know these can be roleplayed, but I would wish for a way to make them mechanical. I have no idea to really implenet it.
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby White935 » 26 Jan 2013, 20:54

This may have been suggested before/already in the game, am rather new so do forgive me :).


Private soldiers.. I've read about defections, kingdom training, and also about officers without rulers and i've seen no mention of personal soldiers, or alternatively officers whom currently have no ruler (thus turning to banditry, mercenary work or so on).

perhaps it could be possible to use gold to construct your own soldiers, these soldiers would have benefits of following your orders above that of your liege, and superiors. this would have an effect on ploys, rebellions and so on. also in cases of defection, these troops would naturally follow you, although you'd have to field them then, and perhaps you could train these as a personal turn. you could field a combination of both private soldiers and levies, or one or the other. (or if its difficult engine wise, either one or the other). thou again, private troops may be of better quality (usually) but their coming from your personal coffers.

this would also enable officers without a liege to -offer- to join battles with his soldiers in return for service? gold? or so on as a neutral party, thou i suspect definition of rules would prove difficult.

This might be a bit of a flawed suggestion, but i figured I'd throw it out there, even if it might have been suggested previously.

Edit: Xeniphon ah, that actually makes sense, if people can abuse it, there generally is someone who will. Been playing crusader king II multiplayer, a grand strategy game, and indeed people find ways to bend the system. always (which is frustrating)
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Xeniphon » 26 Jan 2013, 21:26

Even though this thread isn't for duscussion I think this subject is sufficiently important to bend that rule a bit...

Private armies and bandit groups have been done before and they turned out to be very unbalanced and abusive. More or less what happened is that people built them up and then acted in the interest of a kingdom, turning their "independant" force into just another part of that kingdom and scewing the balance of the game in favor of that kingdom. As a result it was decided that such forces were too disruptive and unfair to be permitted.
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby White935 » 27 Jan 2013, 11:03

Xeniphon wrote:Even though this thread isn't for duscussion I think this subject is sufficiently important to bend that rule a bit...

Private armies and bandit groups have been done before and they turned out to be very unbalanced and abusive. More or less what happened is that people built them up and then acted in the interest of a kingdom, turning their "independant" force into just another part of that kingdom and scewing the balance of the game in favor of that kingdom. As a result it was decided that such forces were too disruptive and unfair to be permitted.


how about altering the schematics of it and instead make it so that A governor or ruler assigns military units to an officer, which enables the officer for deployment. however a officer is unable to be given a unit and deployed in the same kingdom turn. thus making it vital to hand over units. these are produced and created as kingdom levies, thus no change or additional numbers. from these, officers could use personal turns and plots to "win over" those troops, enabling stronger defection, and rebellions,

on the other terms, one could also use personal turns to future educate your own troops, instead of being a kingdom turn action.

thou no banditry or similar, basically troops are assigned before, battles occur to each officer, and they become that officers soldiers. giving to many soldiers to one officer would thus be risky, so not only throwing as many officers out on the battlefield as possible would be the best solution, but making sure officers you trust have a larger quantity of troops, compared to officers you don't trust, as their betrayal would have a less of impact off or on the battlefield.
it also means in return of repeated battles, officers would have a downtime when replenishing their troops, meaning a rotation of officers, so throwing all of your best generals into the fray at the first skirmish might not prove the wisest, less you have to deploy them with a damaged unit/troop numbers.

Dunno if this is a poor suggestion or not, but from my understanding, troops are based on the city/fort/staging point, and officers are appointed to lead X troops. and the levies are dispersed among the officers picked. am sorta thinking opposite ,by having levies dispersed among the officers first hand.
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Decado » 28 Jan 2013, 09:27

At the General = high AP point.

Generals often don't have battles every month, they are also in the front lines for capture and potential death/imprisonment when they are on the field whereas many other builds can build their stats in safe environments.

Having played a general I can say that I spent way less than half of my game life in battle, so those gains you mention were non-existent whereas the developer type build you compare it against can get those gains each and every month.
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby White935 » 28 Jan 2013, 10:04

Well, the suggestion isn't aimed to weakene generals,
But to give them personal ownership of x units, which makes
That unit his, in term defection would be more dangerous
And loyal officers/generals valued higher
Other factors would be forming famed units, your squad becoming called the lets say crimson riders, for
Some kinda famed battle/act.

Written from phone, excuse the typos

edited: a exemple of a personal unit, could be gan ning's bells. historical gan ning and his gang wore bells to intimidate his enemies and let them know hes coming. this could be granted with a minor rp status for the unit, and a bonus to per say ambushing with that unit, the bells causing a bonus of -x moral to the enemy if the ambush is successful
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Xeniphon » 13 Feb 2013, 23:58

I'd like to see the Prceless Events thread reinvigorated and more amusing antics like we had in V3! Last version was way too serious and I missed the little moments of silliness that used to give me many chuckles. If staff don't have time to handle it I encourage them to seek a player to encourage other players to submit amusing events to keep it alive (after all its not like doing that actually requires staff levels of trust or powers).
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Sun Tang » 18 Feb 2013, 16:40

Troops, guards, and bodyguards are assumed not to exist with you unless you are a ruler or have established their presence through roleplay. A game master will check your story, so be prepared to provide proof of ownership. Note that the situation described in roleplay takes precedence over any other assumptions, so even though a ruler would normally be expected to have guards present, if he states in a roleplay post that he does not have any with him, there will be no guards available should a plot situation occur (barring any established via counter-plot measures).

http://simrtk.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12782#p1456297

I wish it were possible to be able to hire a small retinue of guards/bodyguards and pay them an upkeep every 3 turns. I am talking a very small amount of guards 1-5, with different specialties and even experience. The upkeep would not be horrifically expensive either, but expensive enough so that people would not all run out to get a bodyguard. Perhaps their could be a bonus from the "loyalty" skill to reduce the cost and of course their loyalty to you in a dire situation and preventing them from abandoning you or even turning on you.

Guards could come in various forms. A bulky tank like guard, a ranged guard with a crossbow, a brawler with a sword or small axe or one who remains hidden or innocuous and carries a small blade and sleeve darts. Some types of guard may cost more also. Perhaps there could be a new market thread were people could employ the services of these guards and handle transaction in the same way as the market thread, posting a link to prove purchase in OI. Perhaps free officers could enlist at such an establishment also, in the hopes of gaining the attention of a GMNPC who may consider them for employment, skill tutoring or friendship. Guards could maybe be trained in PT's to increase their level (basically their stats) the same way that a skill can be learned. Can only train one Guard per PT, unless you have Zeal. Must designate which Guard. Guards will not be for everyone and will not be necessary. Can only be used in defensive situations, for example when traveling, Roleplaying, day to day activities, diplomatic missions, etc. Can not be used in offensive plots unless specific permission from Staff is approved, but can be used in a counter plot.

My proposed cost of upkeep will need adjusted but here is rough draft proposal. Each level takes 3 Pt's to achieve next level.

Proposed Upkeep cost per 3 turns for Lv 1 guards with Stats (51-65-51-41-51)
1 guard: 55 Gold
2 guards 110 Gold
3 guards 170 Gold
4 guards 280 Gold
5 guards 500 Gold

Proposed Upkeep cost per 3 turns for Lv 2 guards with Stats (55-70-55-45-55)
1 guard: 65 Gold
2 guards 130 Gold
3 guards 190 Gold
4 guards 310 Gold
5 guards 560 Gold

Guards can only be hired lv 1 or lv 2, unless you are able to hire a PC or NPC guard. Those are not subject to levels or standard upkeep costs. Those are negotiated between the two parties. Guards can go as high as lv 5.

Proposed Upkeep cost per 3 turns for Lv 3 guards with Stats (61-76-61-51-61)
1 guard: 70 Gold
2 guards 150 Gold
3 guards 210 Gold
4 guards 350 Gold
5 guards 580 Gold

Proposed Upkeep cost per 3 turns for Lv 4 guards with Stats (66-81-66-56-66)

1 guard: 80 Gold
2 guards 160 Gold
3 guards 230 Gold
4 guards 340 Gold
5 guards 600 Gold

Proposed Upkeep cost per 3 turns for Lv 5 guards with Stats (66-86-66-56-66)
1 guard: 100 Gold
2 guards 180 Gold
3 guards 250 Gold
4 guards 370 Gold
5 guards 650 Gold
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Kongming999 » 18 Feb 2013, 17:04

SunTang: That seems like a really interesting idea, with lots of possibilities. I plan to play a bodyguard type character in v6 (basically a brawler dude with really high War and no Lead since he won't be leading any armies, just protecting his charge).

I was also thinking of something like a contract bodyguard, where they stay with you for the duration of one single event and leave afterwards, so you don't have to pay them for the full 3 months.
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Aureal » 18 Feb 2013, 17:10

For crissakes, if you want bodyguards just write your roleplays to mention them!
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Sun Tang » 18 Feb 2013, 17:18

So by stating I have bodyguards in my RP is sufficient proof of ownership? Would those rp bodyguards have stats? This is not meant for rulers, but instead for officers and free officers to have guards.
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Mat » 18 Feb 2013, 18:30

Sun Tang wrote:So by stating I have bodyguards in my RP is sufficient proof of ownership? Would those rp bodyguards have stats? This is not meant for rulers, but instead for officers and free officers to have guards.


Even faceless NPCs have stats. They just don't normally come up. I'm assuming the stats in V6 will be the same/similar to what they were in v5.

Sample Average Stats
Average Peasant: 15-30-35-25-30
Average Wiseman: 35-25-65-60-50
Average Soldier: 40-45-30-25-30
Average Guard: 40-60-30-30-30
Average General: 65-65-50-50-50
Average Governor: 55-50-55-60-60
Average Politician: 40-25-55-65-55
Average Tiger: 5-75-15-5-50


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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby OneEyedDrgn » 18 Feb 2013, 19:13

I think the general rule is free officers cannot have guards here, or everyone would be doing the same. I think there was some plot here where someone's NPC got vanished?

So yeah, I dunno. I understand such a rule is in place to prevent people "cheating" in some ways, but if I have an NPC I like playing around with, I wouldn't want him/her to just disappear in events and plots.
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Re: V6 Player Wishlist.

Postby Aureal » 18 Feb 2013, 19:31

OneEyedDrgn wrote:I think the general rule is free officers cannot have guards


They can't? This is news to me! My free officer went around with guards all the flipping time.
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