NPC Stat Debating

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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 08 Jun 2010, 04:00

I don't mind XM tweaking GMNPC's, or awesome NPC's, to reflect their ages as he has sometimes done in the past. On the whole though, we assume them at peak growth and I would really rather not go "hey Tarrot, do you think this guy counts?" and then doing 3 versions of him
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 15 Feb 2013, 05:28

If/when we next do NPC statting, what heroes would people like to do? The NPC's put in separate list so those who don't want to do the majority but wish to concentrate on the big figures who are likely to be GMNPC's in a game.

Last time we did Cao Cao, Cao Pi, Cao Ren, Chen Gong, Chen Tai, Cheng Pu, Deng Ai, Deng Zhi, Dian Wei, Diao Chan, Dong Zhuo, Du Yu, Fa Zheng, Gan Ning, Gongsun Zan, Guan Yu, Guo Jia, Hao Zhao, Hua Xin, Huang Gai, Huang Zhong, Huangfu Song, Jia Xu, Jiang Wei, Li Ru, Liu Bei, Lu Kang, Lu Su, Lu Xun, Lu Bu, Lu Meng, Ma Chao, Ma Teng, Pang De, Pang Tong, Pei Yuan Shao, Sima Shi, Sima Yi, Sima Zhao, Sun Ce, Sun Jian, Sun Shang Xiang, Sun Quan, Taishi Ci, Wen Chou, Wei Yan, Xiahou Ba, Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Xu Chu, Xu Huang, Xu Shu, Xun You, Xun Yu, Yan Liang, Yang Hu, Yu Jin, Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Yue Jin, Zhang Fei, Zhang He, Zhang Hong, Zhang Jue, Zhang Liao, Zhang Rang, Zhang Zhao, Zhao Yun, Zhong Hui, Zhou Tai, Zhou Yu, Zhu Jun, Zhu Ran, Zhuge Liang.

To add someone to the list, I would request you also say who you would take off. Example, Wen Yang/Jia Chong for Zhang Hong/Wen Chou so the list doesn't get insanely big.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Tian Long » 15 Feb 2013, 12:59

Personally I'd like to see A Dou and other notoriously incompetent but crucially important figures getting the GMNPC treatment. Also some of the less known but still mentionable ladies like Wang Yi and Cai Yan. I'd remove Hua Xin and Deng Zhi to clear up space as well as those that will not fit the time period (Lu Kang, Deng Ai, Zhong Hui etc...) Oh and get rid of Lu Bu, sick of him already...
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby An Ying Hu » 15 Feb 2013, 13:15

Tian Long wrote:Personally I'd like to see A Dou and other notoriously incompetent but crucially important figures getting the GMNPC treatment. Also some of the less known but still mentionable ladies like Wang Yi and Cai Yan. I'd remove Hua Xin and Deng Zhi to clear up space as well as those that will not fit the time period (Lu Kang, Deng Ai, Zhong Hui etc...)


I agree.

Oh and get rid of Lu Bu, sick of him already...


I disagree. :P
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Xiahou Mao » 15 Feb 2013, 15:20

I'd suggest removing Cao Ren from that list. I don't know, I just have a sneaking suspicion that he might not be playing a very big role in the upcoming game.

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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 15 Feb 2013, 15:28

So the He Jin's, Cao Shuang's, Liu Shan's (trying to think who else), I can see. The Wang Yi's, Cai Yan's, (Sun Luban's?) also, since most people won't have had a chance to stat them. On Deng Ai and co 1) no way am I puting Deng Ai in the normal list, for my sanity as much as anything :P , 2) Deng Ai did appear in a recent game to be fair and 3) you don't know what era we are playing in.

Would prefer specific names

Xiahou Mao wrote:I'd suggest removing Cao Ren from that list. I don't know, I just have a sneaking suspicion that he might not be playing a very big role in the upcoming game.

*looks innocent*


I thought Cao Ren was going to become Supreme Emperor of awesome?
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 15 Feb 2013, 16:23

Just had a quick go.

Out:
Cao Ren
Deng Zhi
Du Yu
Fa Zheng
Hao Zhao
Hua Xin
Li Ru
Ma Teng
Pei Yuanshao
Wen Chou
Yan Liang
Xu Shu

In:
Liu Shan
Cao Shuang
He Jin
Sun Luban
Wang Yi
Cai Yan
Jia Chong
Wen Yang
Xin Xianying
Zhuge Ke
Zhuge Dan
One of the Wu regents?
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Tian Long » 16 Feb 2013, 11:43

Well then allow me to respond that we would most likely come up with a much more accurate list to your liking if in fact we didn't know what time the game will occur in. . Secondly my suggestions were more of a what we would like to see rather than what will preserve your sanity recommendations. Removing Deng Ai . Again if we knew or had any hint of when it was going to actually take place then the recommendations could be revised more sensibly. :wink:
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 16 Feb 2013, 12:44

Why do you need to know the era and ruin the surprise? We have had hero list ranging from Han figures (Song, Zhang Rang) to latter era (Lu Kang, Du Yu, Jiang Wei) since before I joined the game. I'm not seeking a targeted list for an era, just a list of characters people would like to do rather then the Deng Zhi's and Pei Yuanshao's.

Putting Deng Ai or a Lu Bu in the normal NPC list would probably hold up statting the 2,000 NPC's for a few days simply on checking all the sources for that one character and end up being done by a grand total of 2 people for a character who I would rather see get heavy scrutiny and plenty of options.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Xeniphon » 16 Feb 2013, 15:23

I thought the idea of GMNPCs vs NPCs was that the GMNPCs were either too important to the story progression to be trusted to players or (more importantly in this case) too powerful to let players use. If my understanding is indeed correct then isn't the idea of asking who people want to see as GMNPCs or who should be removed from the list irrelivant? I mean shouldn't the characters be stated and then made GMNPC or not based on importance and/or power rather than opinion or a subjective number of spots seen as ideal? Its not like they all show up and as I understand it the GMNPCs that do show up are (to a degree) random so its not like they will all be used in one game anyway.

Now take my advice or leave it but I think that since the stat/skill system will be so close to V5 that switching out skills to account for those added and/or removed with major reworks only really needed for characters with problems or debates as to the proper stats/skills is really all that is needed. That should take much less time than a total re-do since supposedly you re-did everything properly last time and the changes will not be huge (like it was from V3 to V4 or V4 to V5). I figure there is no need to reinvent the wheel every version, just build on what you have done and change any oversights previously made (or to adapt them to slight rule changes/skill swaps) until/unless another major stat/skill change happens in some future version.
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 16 Feb 2013, 16:27

Xeniphon wrote: If my understanding is indeed correct then isn't the idea of asking who people want to see as GMNPCs or who should be removed from the list irrelivant?


yes but I'm not asking who people want as GMNPC's.I'm merely asking who do people want to stat since some seemed to have liked statting the likes of Diao Chan, Cao Cao, Ma Chao and the debates that came from it in the past. I wanted to give those people a choice since I doubt people particularly want to stat Deng Zhi, for example, but I thought it would nice to ask who they would rather stat instead.

Xeniphon wrote:Now take my advice or leave it but I think that since the stat/skill system will be so close to V5 that switching out skills to account for those added and/or removed with major reworks only really needed for characters with problems or debates as to the proper stats/skills is really all that is needed. That should take much less time than a total re-do since supposedly you re-did everything properly last time and the changes will not be huge (like it was from V3 to V4 or V4 to V5). I figure there is no need to reinvent the wheel every version, just build on what you have done and change any oversights previously made (or to adapt them to slight rule changes/skill swaps) until/unless another major stat/skill change happens in some future version.


So basically I go through the list, remove dead skills, and try to remember which of them might deserve the new skills until the next big revamp when we would do the heroes/NPC lists in public again? If there is a lack of interest then yes, that is an option.

There are a few figures who I would add to the NPC list anyway so that would also have to happen and I would need to wait for a chance to take advantage of Jordan's work for latter figures but I can do that each game turn or wait till we do a massive restatting.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Lionheart » 16 Feb 2013, 16:40

In regards to NPC statting...I would really, really like to see more useful NPCs. Most of them out there are utter crap, and I don't think that they should mostly be that way, if only because of game balance reasons.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Xeniphon » 16 Feb 2013, 18:04

I missunderstood, my bad DZ... :oops:

While I agree to a degree Lion-o to make them a lot better drasticly improves recriuter types (though based on some vague comments about Cha types in battle this might be a good thing this time around) and it takes some of the focus off of PCs. I know we have fewer active players at any given time than in V3 but at the same time that makes it more appealing to just grab decent NPCs rather than fighting for the PCs (particularly since XM said people won't be able to max out city stats and move the developers on to the next). Another consideration, though not as much a mechanical issue, is that if you make NPCs who managed nothing significant good then it cheapens those who did (or forces staff to increase the stats/skills of the big ones and those guys are already crazy).

I think that if some of the lower end guys get a boost it shouldn't climb up to the better ones and only be modest at that. Of course thats just me...
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 16 Feb 2013, 18:23

No problem

I do sometimes consider if we should bump up generals to 60 as we tend to do so with administrators, I suppose the problem is random governor of snoreville we tend to assume is successful. A random general tends to be followed with words like "and got defeated by Liu Bo". Granted, not sure 60 lead is going to be that much better then 57
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Lionheart » 16 Feb 2013, 18:30

Dong Zhou wrote:No problem

I do sometimes consider if we should bump up generals to 60 as we tend to do so with administrators, I suppose the problem is random governor of snoreville we tend to assume is successful. A random general tends to be followed with words like "and got defeated by Liu Bo". Granted, not sure 60 lead is going to be that much better then 57


Actually, I was hoping that there would be more generals that would, you know, actually be fieldable, with Lead in the 70s and INT in the 50-60s. Also giving NPCs skills that match their stats might help, too. At least in the case of generals, outside of the hero GMNPCs, there were very, very few fieldable generals in pretty much every version of SimRTK so far. The only reason that a ruler would field a general with 60 LEA was if he was in desperate straits. No sane ruler would do that unless he absolutely needed to. Unfortunately, most of the NPC generals fell into that category (or worse).

Xeniphon, believe me when I say that making NPCs slightly better won't take much focus away from PCs. Ask any ruler from any version if they had enough generals and the answer is almost always a resounding "no". As long as we're not handing out 80s and high 70s willy-nilly, there's not going to be much focus taken away from PCs.
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