NPC Stat Debating

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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Aureal » 22 Feb 2010, 04:47

There would be negative consequences if you fired PCs without cause, too. :wink:
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby StromwellKnight9 » 22 Feb 2010, 04:53

Is "you're useless and fail at everything you do" sufficient cause for firing someone? :wink:

That might help with our NPC problem :D
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Junts » 22 Feb 2010, 15:28

Aureal wrote:There would be negative consequences if you fired PCs without cause, too. :wink:


There's never a need to actually a fire a pc though; its very easy to make a pc feel so unwelcome they will leave without ever actually firing them, and very little the staff can do to control it.

My favorite technique was just to remove those people from my PH entirely; if they wanted to give me free civil KTs they were welcome to, but most of them caught onto the fact that they weren't welcome anymore and resigned.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby StromwellKnight9 » 22 Feb 2010, 22:20

Oh I have another idea! What if we could do searches and specify not to recruit anyone found?

Therefore they'd appear in our kingdom and we'd still be able to recruit them next turn if and only if we actually wanted to.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Xu Yuan » 24 Feb 2010, 23:29

On NPCs. I was wondering if it might be possible to give them a mini PT system to work from? As it stands a lot of the NPCs are nigh worthless, but that doesn't always have to be. Say a player in a kingdom wants to build up Jin Xuan, who has poor stats all around.


"Jin Xuan - XX-XX-XX-XX-XX"
Rank (if have one)
PT: Train; Leadership"

Or something small like that. This could make even the worst NPC's much more useful if enough time passes.

Of course, keeping track of such a thing could be highly difficult.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Han1977 » 25 Feb 2010, 02:50

Patricoo wrote:for 1. The problem of doing that, Tarrot, is that the demand of searching now goes up. Way up. Though you may not know how much, if rulers figure it out the value of searching for NPCs go up at all in a significant way then searching will now become "worth it" and ironically more NPCs might need to get added.

2 and 3 are up for debate and I wouldn't exactly throw those ideas away. I just can't see cutting out so many.


If ruler want NPCs that much and those with extra budget willing to search and end up with crappy NPCs.

I think the 3rd option isn't that bad, at first with so many NPCs found but not recruited the list will get longer but as soon as big kingdom need to fill their post with NPCs even the crappy one. Limit your short searches number, they are forced to recruit from the list.

Maybe we could apply the part where ruler can give certain prerequisites in their search and recruit but at the same time reduce the maximum short searches a kingdom can do. So those who really need NPCs to fill up their ranks (big kingdom) eat all the crappy NPCs that a smaller kingdom refuse to hire.

Small kingdom don't need to burden themselves with NPCs they don't need. Big kingdom forced to recruit NPCs outside short search and at the same time keep the list manageable.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Zhao Ren » 09 May 2010, 04:54

I find it odd Chen Wu, who had kills in battles (historically so too, I think? I'm positive in the novel, at least), lacks Duelist. Or Weaponmaster. Anything beyond a slightly high War. It just strikes me as a little strange, given his background and noted fierce disposition. Therefore, proposal:
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby SuperDianWei » 07 Jun 2010, 14:11

I feel like Wang Jun is waayyyyyy too high. Not because I happen to be in a kingdom opposed to the kingdom he joined, either!

In this sim, he is 15 years old. FIFTEEN! He didn't conquer Wu until (assuming the dates on the internet are correct) 280, or in otherwords, not until he was 74. That's almost 60 years off. I'm fairly sure he required some seasoning from the time he was 15 until he turned 74 and conquered Wu to become the general he was. His stats should be much more pedestrian considering his age.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Tian Long » 07 Jun 2010, 14:22

SuperDianWei wrote:I feel like Wang Jun is waayyyyyy too high. Not because I happen to be in a kingdom opposed to the kingdom he joined, either!

In this sim, he is 15 years old. FIFTEEN! He didn't conquer Wu until (assuming the dates on the internet are correct) 280, or in otherwords, not until he was 74. That's almost 60 years off. I'm fairly sure he required some seasoning from the time he was 15 until he turned 74 and conquered Wu to become the general he was. His stats should be much more pedestrian considering his age.


If this were the case then a sliding scale for all NPC's would need to be introduced, and considering the amount of NPC's there are, and also considering that there is no such scale for PC characters either, it makes sense to have his stat and skill line be set irregardless of age.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby SuperDianWei » 07 Jun 2010, 17:26

Tian Long wrote:
SuperDianWei wrote:I feel like Wang Jun is waayyyyyy too high. Not because I happen to be in a kingdom opposed to the kingdom he joined, either!

In this sim, he is 15 years old. FIFTEEN! He didn't conquer Wu until (assuming the dates on the internet are correct) 280, or in otherwords, not until he was 74. That's almost 60 years off. I'm fairly sure he required some seasoning from the time he was 15 until he turned 74 and conquered Wu to become the general he was. His stats should be much more pedestrian considering his age.


If this were the case then a sliding scale for all NPC's would need to be introduced, and considering the amount of NPC's there are, and also considering that there is no such scale for PC characters either, it makes sense to have his stat and skill line be set irregardless of age.


Well, the sim started in 220, and I imagine it was designed to run somewhere around 5 in game years at a best case scenario (but probably less). The stats of the NPC officers involved should reflect where they generally stood in that 5 year span in question, and not just have all the NPCs in the game be "in their prime", or to me, it becomes a lot less realistic. When the NPC stats are formulated at the start of the sim, they should reflect this idea.

As a real life example, if you tell me something like "I would pick Michael Jordan on my basketball team over everybody else", I would ask you to give me more information. Would you go with 92 Jordan who was at the peak of his athletic mountain, or maybe 96 Jordan, who best combined experience with skill, but was a little too old to do the kind of things that 92 Jordan could do. Surely you don't mean 09 Jordan, who just does Hanes commercials and shows up at Blackhawks games. The point is the age matters, and writing it off as irrelevant is lazy and leaves you with an inferior product (no offense intended).

And by the way, PCs ARE hit with that sliding scale, since at your roll, your age determines how much SP and PTD you are allotted.

Maybe this should be shifted more towards V6 suggestions, but yeah, in this incarnation of the sim, Wang Jun's stats should be much lower. If a sim is done that starts in 265 some day, then he should be a lot higher.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby JohannXIV » 07 Jun 2010, 17:37

SuperDianWei wrote:And by the way, PCs ARE hit with that sliding scale, since at your roll, your age determines how much SP and PTD you are allotted.


Forum Administration wrote: Your age may be anything between 15 and 99 years old. Anyone younger than 15 has not yet come of age in society and is considered a child, while anyone older than 99 has one foot on death's welcome mat. Both your age and your name are purely roleplay decisions that will have no mechanical effect on the game. Older characters do not start with more skills, nor do younger characters start with higher stats, as has been the case in earlier versions of SimRTK.


Despite the lack of realism here, I'm inclined not to complain about the NPC stats being "peak." The vast majority of NPCs are totally crap-*** useless, and they don't receive any type of growth through the game. This is as good as he is ever going to be. Period. The issue here shouldn't be the quality of the NPC but the fact that they are static. Also, given the stat line and skill set, he's not really all that much better than a PC. He's good at a lot of things, but great at nothing.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby SuperDianWei » 07 Jun 2010, 19:15

I am merely asserting that if you take them and stand them next to each other, Wang Jun as a 15 year old and Wang Jun as a 74 year old are two completely different officers, and should be treated as such. I'm not very worried about the static aspect because the sim isn't going to last 60 in-game years, its only going to last about 3-5, so to split the difference, go ahead and calculate what his stats would be as an 18 year old or a 20 year old. It doesn't much matter, because in either event, he'll be nowhere near what he is as a 74 year old. Yeah, he doesn't defeat the Jin for another 60 years, but we'll just make him look as awesome as if he already had. Why does this apparently not make sense to anybody other than me? Am I taking crazy pills?

There are plenty of other NPCs out there who are of proper age to reflect their statlines. If the staff wanted to introduce an awesome statline into the game, fine, make it somebody who makes sense. A 15 year old pre-pubescent Wang Jun 60 years removed from becoming anything historically relevant is not somebody that makes sense, that's all.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Wei Fei » 07 Jun 2010, 20:52

I can see where you are coming from, but the NPC list is made prior to any knowledge of the time line we will be dealing with for the game. If we are going in blind (as we should be creating all rules/laws, via the veil of ignorance), then we need to create a situation that is fair, regardless of the perspective you are approaching it from.

Since we look at NPC stats as what that officer is capable (since they do not have the ability to grow into something more), we need to give them stats and skills that represent the zenith of their career.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby SuperDianWei » 07 Jun 2010, 21:39

Wei Fei wrote:I can see where you are coming from, but the NPC list is made prior to any knowledge of the time line we will be dealing with for the game. If we are going in blind (as we should be creating all rules/laws, via the veil of ignorance), then we need to create a situation that is fair, regardless of the perspective you are approaching it from.

Since we look at NPC stats as what that officer is capable (since they do not have the ability to grow into something more), we need to give them stats and skills that represent the zenith of their career.


I think that's a silly approach. You should start with the world. and build the laws to suit it, not the other way around. What I would suggest is take what you just described and work backwards. Start with the time/story/setting, and then identify who would be in the setting you chose, and how they would look.

And to clarify, this is something I primarily suggest for GMNPCs. With your standard NPCs, they start off average and end up average, with not very much growth and diversity through their careers. Yes, somebody like Zhou Cang is useful, but his day one stats and his death bed stats don't vary too greatly (in my mind at least). Nobody is going to begrudge +/- 7 Lead when it comes right down to it. But GMNPCs have such incredible stats later on in their lives compared to what they start out with, that that's where my concern comes into play. And GMNPCs do (have the option) to grow and develop. so its even more conceivable.

To extend the basketball analogy, talking about whether 92 or 96 Michael Jordan is a discussion that holds great consequence. but talking about 03 Smush Parker vs. 06 Smush Parker? Doesn't matter! He's a terrible point guard! Slap some stats on him and move on!

So I guess to clarify my stance, this is not so much for all NPCs as it is with GMNPC caliber NPCs.
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Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Tarrot » 07 Jun 2010, 23:14

I would like to point out that the reason that PCs don't get more skills with age is because it unbalanced the sign-up process, not to reflect realism. Otherwise, Wang Jun kicked ass against Wu, so we gave him stuff to represent that basically.
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