NPC Stat Debating

Forum rules, feedback, speak with game masters, suggestions, etc.

Moderator: Game Masters

NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 07 Jun 2009, 13:13

New thread for new game

Harimau wrote:This is where you can debate about the various stats of the NPC's... Make sure you actually quote sources when actually making an argument. Arguments like "Zhao Yun should get higher war because he was so awesome in DW3" will be given spam warnings. Historical sources such as SGZ, ZZTJ, HHS and other historical books would be given greated credence.
<stattingXe> Dong Yan 65-63-89-70-74 Statting (e)

Li Jun (160) 91*-59-69-29-59 Aid, Blitz, Charge, Leader, Scout, Vehemence

Officer Profile

PM me if I'm in an rp with you and haven't responded, just means I forgot or missed your post. Or PM if you want an RP
User avatar
Dong Zhou
I'm A Diversion!
I'm A Diversion!
 
Posts: 10766
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 08:15
Location: hidden in my couch fort
Kingdom: None

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Tarrot » 07 Jun 2009, 13:44

Quick question: Did whoever delete or archive the NPC threads? Just in preparation for doing it next game.
Xiong Qibing (191) 94*-59-90*-82*-85* | Skills: Ambush, Arson, Dash, Jeer, Raid, Rally, Rumour (e), Stealth, Terrain, Trap, Wile, Zeal (e) | Items: Draft Horse [mount] (Lead +1), The Duke of Zhou's Art of War [treatise] (Pol +2, Int +1, +5% success to Wile ploys), Black Onyx Elephant Pendant [jewel] (Cha +1, Pol +1, Int +1), Jade Dragon Pendant [jewel] (Cha +2, Int +1), Trapper's Map (Lead +1, *Trap), Calligraphy (+2 Bond)
Tarrot
Lü Bu’s cousin, twice removed
 
Posts: 4222
Joined: 04 May 2003, 20:06
Location: A coward and loving it.
Kingdom: Vagabond

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 07 Jun 2009, 13:46

Archive
<stattingXe> Dong Yan 65-63-89-70-74 Statting (e)

Li Jun (160) 91*-59-69-29-59 Aid, Blitz, Charge, Leader, Scout, Vehemence

Officer Profile

PM me if I'm in an rp with you and haven't responded, just means I forgot or missed your post. Or PM if you want an RP
User avatar
Dong Zhou
I'm A Diversion!
I'm A Diversion!
 
Posts: 10766
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 08:15
Location: hidden in my couch fort
Kingdom: None

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Taishi Ci 2.0 » 07 Jun 2009, 21:02

I'd like to make an overall argument for statting processing.

It seems like the vast majority of these NPCs are either or both of:

1) Stats/skills dissonance, like having low Cha with a Cha-based skill or having low Lead with a Lead-based skill
2) Having, on average, lower stats than starting PCs even in their highest stats, making them not quite useful for much with a few notable exceptions; yet, sometimes having a large amount of skills, which adds to the illusion of the NPCs being "better"

With that in mind, I would like to suggest that, instead of arbitrarily assigning skills and stats, NPCs should be run through the normal sign-up system, but with modifications from normal PCs. Assign PCs to several tiers, and based off these tiers, they gain different levels of starting PTD/SP less than (or, for Hero NPCs, more than) the normal PC signup. For example, if PCs get 100 weights and 12 SP, the grunt NPCs could be statted using 90/80/70/60 weights and 10/9/8/7 SP, something to that effect.

We could start the initial debates without even having a present sign-up system by pulling up the V5 NPCs and deciding who goes into which tier.

Thoughts?
Song Yong (33) 41-89-84-36-40
Craftsman, Duelist (e), Reversal, Study, Wile
User avatar
Taishi Ci 2.0
Magnetoesque
 
Posts: 712
Joined: 21 Aug 2006, 20:50
Location: It's a death trap, it's a suicide rap

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby SYL » 07 Jun 2009, 22:47

Before I descend into peals of visceral horror, my central point is this: most of the NPCs' stats and skills are actually basically fine. It's just the same old controversial figures who pop up and cause huge debates. This would be an awful lot of work for almost no real gain, and a big loss in terms of character.

Tailoring NPCs by hand is the best way to end up with NPCs which actually represent their historical/fictional counterparts. Running then through the generator would kill most of their individuality. This stat generation system is coming out with a lot of one-trick characters, which doesn't really reflect many of the personages of the era (even minor ones) who were governors and advisors and politicians as well as generals. Trying to get around that gives you the frankly horrible prospect of 'tiers' of NPCs, with roughly equivalent levels of skill. The dissonance in some characters is part of the fun! No-one could argue that they aren't characterful. Plus, everyone likes to have their say, and it's heaps of fun to do it by hand.

Basically, you'd take the soul out of the process if they were to be 'rationalised' in such a manner. Instead of a pick and mix selection box of thieves, brigands, politicians and lunatics, we'd just have a melange of cookie-cutter, mechanically produced NPCs with most of the flavour stripped out. And then all the big characters would end up basically the same as ever anyway.

Automation of the PC creation process is there to allow people to tinker and fine tune their individual, fictional character, with a little randomisation. It's not necessary for the NPCs - we have our sources, we have our opinions, and we know what stats do what, what skills do what, and so on. Who cares if they don't make sense? People don't make sense, and half of the characters in Romance of the Three Kingdoms don't either. It's better that way, I think.
Pre-Game Guest Star:

Guo Zhao (53) 84-69-73-36-60
Counter, Formation, Fusillade, Leader (e), Volley
User avatar
SYL
Good one, sir!
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: 28 Jun 2003, 16:34
Location: ARROW'D

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Lionheart » 08 Jun 2009, 00:04

All I would like to do is to make some more NPCs simply more useful overall, but some should not be as good and even fewer better than PCs. Of course, PCs also should eventually be better so I say "no" to NPC experience.
~ Wang Jin (Male, 155-193)
~ Hua Xin (Male, 157- ???) 37-54-67-90-71 | Skills: Acumen, Administration, Civil Engineer, Farmer, Investigator, Networking, Propaganda, Rumour
~ ???? ?? (?, ???) ??-??-??-??-??
User avatar
Lionheart
Green Bay Stalker
Green Bay Stalker
 
Posts: 6353
Joined: 12 Mar 2004, 16:14
Location: IT'S A TRAP! :O
Kingdom: Chen Wei

Postby Liu Sun » 08 Jun 2009, 00:07

SYL has a point.

Although, that said, I do think NPCs should have slightly better stats over-all... Someone like Li Hui did things on par with a PC, so why are my stats better than his?
GMNPC: The Great Xing Xi
PC: Renyi Suiji (28) 91*-90*-90*-78*-83* Artisan; Duelist; *Navy; Rally; Reversal; Scribe; Study; Trample; Trap; Zeal (e)
User avatar
Liu Sun
Aw man, I'm the biggest idiot ever...
 
Posts: 15344
Joined: 30 Aug 2004, 03:40
Location: Can it be?
Kingdom: Yes it can!

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Taishi Ci 2.0 » 08 Jun 2009, 00:41

Before I descend into peals of visceral horror, my central point is this: most of the NPCs' stats and skills are actually basically fine. It's just the same old controversial figures who pop up and cause huge debates. This would be an awful lot of work for almost no real gain, and a big loss in terms of character.


I would agree that they are "fine" if you mean "not overpowered", but I am not really concerned here with the Hero NPCs. What I am more focused on is the other 85% of the NPCs, the ones that mostly get recruited and then shunted off to fill a gap in I-net or used as a pack mule or whatever, because they're really not good for much else. A random sampling:

Zhao Rong (155) 55-42-58-44-51 | Skills: Administration, Investigator | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found (n)
Zhao Rong (177) 54-50-47-34-46 | Skills: Leader, Wall | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found (n)
Zhao Rui (152) 39-37-52-55-53 | Skills: Aid | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found (n)
Zhao Rui (178) 53-48-43-37-41 | Skills: Dash, Logistics | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found (n)
Zhao She (147) 33-37-57-68-52 | Skills: Acumen, Investigator | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found (n)
Zhao Song (167) 45-90-34-37-55 | Skills: Duelist, Valour, Zeal | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found (n)
Zhao Ta (193) 31-30-47-40-42 | Skills: Acumen, Investigator | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found (b)

It's hard to see any kind of even third-stringer use for these guys, with the exception of Zhao Song and maybe Zhao She. Could you ever see yourself actually using Zhao Ta or Zhao She as an Investigator? Or sending Zhao Rui into a real battle?

As for character, that's up to the staffer playing the NPC, if anyone; remember, 90% of the NPCs in active play aren't RP'd by anyone. And you can't really figure out an NPC's character on here just by looking at their statline. Does Dong Zhuo's statline tell you that he's a fat arrogant slob? Does Pei Yuan Shao's statline tell you that he is Pretty Pretty Pei?

Tailoring NPCs by hand is the best way to end up with NPCs which actually represent their historical/fictional counterparts. Running then through the generator would kill most of their individuality. This stat generation system is coming out with a lot of one-trick characters, which doesn't really reflect many of the personages of the era (even minor ones) who were governors and advisors and politicians as well as generals.


If we're going by RP standards here than almost every PC is a general is a warrior is an adviser etc. Remember, stats of 30 or below are peasant level, anything above that is something more special. If you have 50 War, from an IC perspective you are a decent enough fighter.

Trying to get around that gives you the frankly horrible prospect of 'tiers' of NPCs, with roughly equivalent levels of skill. The dissonance in some characters is part of the fun! No-one could argue that they aren't characterful. Plus, everyone likes to have their say, and it's heaps of fun to do it by hand.


We already have informal tiers for NPCs that most rulers discover: completely terrible (some NPCs even have no skills, if I remember right), decently good at one thing, servicible, not bad, near-PC level, and Heroes. Most of them fall into the first two categories.

I admit I have a hard time finding the fun part in mismatched stats and skills. If it were a PC it might provide a decent roleplay experience to have a skill with a stat far too low to take advantage of it, and work against it. But most NPCs don't get thought-provoking RP opportunities or character development or wacky personalties. They can't even improve themselves, unless the ruler gives them some +stat items now and then. As a player you might take a look at an NPC with 32 Cha and Jeer (e) and be amused. But for a ruler they are basically worthless outside of some AH mischief.

Basically, you'd take the soul out of the process if they were to be 'rationalised' in such a manner. Instead of a pick and mix selection box of thieves, brigands, politicians and lunatics, we'd just have a melange of cookie-cutter, mechanically produced NPCs with most of the flavour stripped out. And then all the big characters would end up basically the same as ever anyway.


Having some kind of mechanical backing to NPC creation does not prevent thieves or politicians or lunatics from being statted according to their personalities. PCs are not restricted to having all stats divisible by 5 or some flat-looking result like that, what makes you think NPCs would be subject to it? An NPC remains the same person whether or not their stats are selected by the sign-up process instead of by number assignment "because it just feels right".

Automation of the PC creation process is there to allow people to tinker and fine tune their individual, fictional character, with a little randomisation. It's not necessary for the NPCs - we have our sources, we have our opinions, and we know what stats do what, what skills do what, and so on. Who cares if they don't make sense? People don't make sense, and half of the characters in Romance of the Three Kingdoms don't either. It's better that way, I think.


If we know what stats do and skills do, we should give them a little more thought before assigning them to the NPCs.
Song Yong (33) 41-89-84-36-40
Craftsman, Duelist (e), Reversal, Study, Wile
User avatar
Taishi Ci 2.0
Magnetoesque
 
Posts: 712
Joined: 21 Aug 2006, 20:50
Location: It's a death trap, it's a suicide rap

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Tarrot » 08 Jun 2009, 01:17

The problem is: So many of the guys really get no mention at all in history or the novel, they're just "I will duel you renowned warrior. Bleargh, I am dead." or one shot mentions in Rafe's tomb that they were a general, or they held x post. I mean, using a few of the examples you posted, the word for word bios:

Zhao Rong 1: "In 188 Zhao Rong was one of the eight colonels of the Western Garden, in the private army set up by Emperor Ling.

Some ten years later, when he heard how Yuan Shao had behaved discourteously to the great scholar Zheng Xuan, Zhao Rong fortold his failure." And then a bunch of stuff discussing possible other references to him, as a General, Investigator, and Administrator and the various issues with each.

Zhao Rong 2: "In 222 Zhao Rong was a commander in the army of Liu Bei which was defeated on the Yangzi by Lu Xun of Wu."

Really, they have low stats because we don't know much about them. Almost every NPC we give "pity" skills to just based on what we know. Usually we gives Inspectors Investigator, a general Leader, etc. The 50s/60s that we give out is pretty much because we use a system for balancing: Pretty much 30 he barely did it, 40 he did it badly, 50 is he did something, 60 is he did something decent, 70 he did something ok, 80 he did something pretty good, 90 he was awesome at it. Now we could scale it a little so that for the low ends, we can make a 50 a 60, a 60 a high 60, and then maybe a small boost for the low 70s, but most of this stuff is balanced pretty well already. Adding skills would be a little more problematic, just to balance it out (since really, one of the things that keeps NPCs in check is the relative lack of skill synergy), but really, the fodder is always going to be fodder, and making them marginally more useful wouldn't mean much.
Xiong Qibing (191) 94*-59-90*-82*-85* | Skills: Ambush, Arson, Dash, Jeer, Raid, Rally, Rumour (e), Stealth, Terrain, Trap, Wile, Zeal (e) | Items: Draft Horse [mount] (Lead +1), The Duke of Zhou's Art of War [treatise] (Pol +2, Int +1, +5% success to Wile ploys), Black Onyx Elephant Pendant [jewel] (Cha +1, Pol +1, Int +1), Jade Dragon Pendant [jewel] (Cha +2, Int +1), Trapper's Map (Lead +1, *Trap), Calligraphy (+2 Bond)
Tarrot
Lü Bu’s cousin, twice removed
 
Posts: 4222
Joined: 04 May 2003, 20:06
Location: A coward and loving it.
Kingdom: Vagabond

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby SYL » 08 Jun 2009, 01:17

Only a few things to add, as I've basically said my piece:

1.

Could you ever see yourself actually using Zhao Ta or Zhao She as an Investigator? Or sending Zhao Rui into a real battle?


No, but it's never come to that. There's always been enough PCs (who are almost all competent at at least one thing) and moderate-good-excellent NPCs to supply all of a kingdom's needs. Bad NPCs exist because those bad people existed. If you want to artificially bump them using a mechanised system, you're not making that person, you're making someone else to fill an irrelevant gameplay purpose.

This is a game about PCs, not NPCs. Lots of them are 'named meat'. This is intentional, and it has never been detrimental.

2.

If we know what stats do and skills do, we should give them a little more thought before assigning them to the NPCs.


I think you're looking at this the wrong way.

I know from when I was tinkering with the list that I always tried to source every skill and every stat. Nothing I added was on a whim, it was always because that person performed that skill, no matter how bad their stats (incidentally, also why my He Jin had no skills). It's not about what's useful, it's about what that guy could do and what he did in the novel or history. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that this has always been the way we do things. You may disagree, but we always tried to find a source in history or the novel for a statline or a skill.

3.

Having some kind of mechanical backing to NPC creation does not prevent thieves or politicians or lunatics from being statted according to their personalities.


So what exactly is the point of running them through the character generator, if everyone ends up where they were in the first place? :wink:

4.

the ones that mostly get recruited and then shunted off to fill a gap in I-net or used as a pack mule or whatever, because they're really not good for much else.


That's still useful. What do you think Han Fu spent the rest of his career doing? :wink:

You're going to cause yourself a lot of hassle with this. I'd suggest we do what we always did - we go through the list, we find out where people deserve skills, cut out the irrational or crazy combinations where they don't make any sense (and I agree, there are a few). I'd rather people were working on fixing things that are broken or exciting new systems, rather than revolutionising the NPC list, which isn't, substantially.

The other advantage of doing it this way is that you get an army of interested volunteers to chip in. ;) Which doesn't always work out, I mean, I think I gave Zhu Jun a 90 Lead or something ridiculous...

Basically, it's an argument between utility and flavour. Sure, make more of the NPCs 'useful', but you'll lose the soul of it. I basically think there are far more worthwhile things to work on than the NPCs. The NPCs are fine, really.
Pre-Game Guest Star:

Guo Zhao (53) 84-69-73-36-60
Counter, Formation, Fusillade, Leader (e), Volley
User avatar
SYL
Good one, sir!
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: 28 Jun 2003, 16:34
Location: ARROW'D

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Dong Zhou » 08 Jun 2009, 04:58

But most NPCs don't get thought-provoking RP opportunities or character development or wacky personalties.


I give the rulers whose PH's I'm in little bio's for each NPC so they or a PC in their kingdom can rp them if they so wished. True, some of them are not ever going to more the mules but some of them are something they can rp work with

As a player you might take a look at an NPC with 32 Cha and Jeer (e) and be amused. But for a ruler they are basically worthless outside of some AH mischief.


hey some uncharismatic gits deserve Jeer :wink:

To be useful, a cha or pol of 70 is needed, sometimes war and int guys of 70 are not bad either. NPC generals need more lead and skills to be useful as anything other then bodies and mules. Or short searches which give you a chance of finding a better NPC and the problem is I'm uncomfortable with giving "general who paid for steele for Cao Pi" getting 70's anything. The PC's are meant to be better then the NPC's for the most part and even the mules have uses anway
<stattingXe> Dong Yan 65-63-89-70-74 Statting (e)

Li Jun (160) 91*-59-69-29-59 Aid, Blitz, Charge, Leader, Scout, Vehemence

Officer Profile

PM me if I'm in an rp with you and haven't responded, just means I forgot or missed your post. Or PM if you want an RP
User avatar
Dong Zhou
I'm A Diversion!
I'm A Diversion!
 
Posts: 10766
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 08:15
Location: hidden in my couch fort
Kingdom: None

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Ranbir » 08 Jun 2009, 07:44

What about a set unique skills only attributed to the heroes. Rather than give Cao Cao [nearly]every skill under the planet, give him a skill unique only to him. A set of "hero" skills, so to speak, that provide general bonuses to what they were good at. I think some links between the skills we have and what a guy did are pretty thin.

Anyway, it is RTKXI that I'm having in mind for that single special skill. An inherent bonus. Perhaps something like that would require a complete re-look at how skills/sign ups might work in v6 - which will have to be under serious consideration if we really want to change it again.

Edit:
I'll try to underline the reasoning of rejig of skills (in the manner of heroes only needing unique skills to them). At the current moment, most of the NPCs we, the players, actually want to interact with are held back. It is because these heroes have been built so damn good it takes a while for them to reach us. That whole balancing deal. Perhaps with a rejig, the heroes can be interacted with earlier but also, with the rejig, won't be taking centre stage.
Last edited by Ranbir on 08 Jun 2009, 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
Whenever righteousness declines and unrighteousness increases I make myself a body; In every age I come back, to deliver the holy, to destroy the sin of the sinner, to establish righteousness.

User avatar
Ranbir
♪ Ohh... the wonderful thing about Ranbirs, is Ranbirs are wonderful things! ♪♪
 
Posts: 4458
Joined: 12 Jan 2004, 19:07
Location: The Western Heaven.
Kingdom: Team Ranbir

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby jinx » 08 Jun 2009, 08:29

Tarrot wrote:Really, they have low stats because we don't know much about them. Almost every NPC we give "pity" skills to just based on what we know. Usually we gives Inspectors Investigator, a general Leader, etc. The 50s/60s that we give out is pretty much because we use a system for balancing: Pretty much 30 he barely did it, 40 he did it badly, 50 is he did something, 60 is he did something decent, 70 he did something ok, 80 he did something pretty good, 90 he was awesome at it. Now we could scale it a little so that for the low ends, we can make a 50 a 60, a 60 a high 60, and then maybe a small boost for the low 70s, but most of this stuff is balanced pretty well already. Adding skills would be a little more problematic, just to balance it out (since really, one of the things that keeps NPCs in check is the relative lack of skill synergy), but really, the fodder is always going to be fodder, and making them marginally more useful wouldn't mean much.


If Taishi Ci's problem with the NPC is their lack of usefulness, would it help if we bumped up base benchmark? Say we start from 40s. If they did barely anything related to say Leadership, bump it up to 50s etc. If they were known for being sucky at something, then drop it to 30s.

But I agree with SYL. I like the idea that NPCs are statted according to what they've done (or at least what we know of) and I hope that wont change.
Lu Hong Yi (18)
39-36-55-111*-100*
Acumen; Administration; Articulate; Artisan (e); Civil Engineer; Commercialist; Propaganda (e); Sage; Scribe (e); Study; Wealth; Zeal
jinx
Veteran Officer
 
Posts: 697
Joined: 15 Apr 2006, 07:15
Kingdom: Duke Chen Wei

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Strong Bad » 08 Jun 2009, 16:08

Ranbir wrote:What about a set unique skills only attributed to the heroes. Rather than give Cao Cao [nearly]every skill under the planet, give him a skill unique only to him. A set of "hero" skills, so to speak, that provide general bonuses to what they were good at. I think some links between the skills we have and what a guy did are pretty thin.

Anyway, it is RTKXI that I'm having in mind for that single special skill. An inherent bonus. Perhaps something like that would require a complete re-look at how skills/sign ups might work in v6 - which will have to be under serious consideration if we really want to change it again.

Edit:
I'll try to underline the reasoning of rejig of skills (in the manner of heroes only needing unique skills to them). At the current moment, most of the NPCs we, the players, actually want to interact with are held back. It is because these heroes have been built so damn good it takes a while for them to reach us. That whole balancing deal. Perhaps with a rejig, the heroes can be interacted with earlier but also, with the rejig, won't be taking centre stage.


Ranbir's got an interesting point that I've been contemplating, too, over the last couple of days. When I first started playing RTK XI and realized characters only had one skill, I griped a bit about it. But it was explained to me that if you pick and choose your generals carefully to form a unit (up to three generals per unit, each one giving their skills and stats to improve the unit), you could end up with some very unstoppable forces if you played them right. I started reorganizing forces a bit more while playing the game, and while I realized that it still took a lot of the uniqueness out of some of the different generals, it did provide an interesting opportunity to make combinations through military and civil workings that provided the best results. Within SimRTK, a bonus to this would be to ensure that while some military or civil officials might have a poor stat line, they might have a decent or unique skill that not many others have. Combine that poorly-statted official with others who have better stats but common skills, and you end up with a "unit" of men doing either military or civil work that has greater bonuses for success.

Now, I don't know if I'd support making this part of SimRTK v6. While being able to combine skillsets of officers together to create great combos is fun, players like having plenty of variety at their fingertips. Being able to choose only ONE skill, and even then having a large amount of difference between some skills and others, would really cause a lot of gripes all around. I'd say that while an interesting idea to implement, I don't believe it would work in the SimRTK experience.

-SB
Xiahou Meng will return for V6. Until then...

Pre-game:
Lü You (34)
70-90-62-16-65
Charge, Duelist (e), Trample, Valour, Weaponmaster

2328. Just because damage is non-lethal doesn't mean I can keep beating him for hours.
User avatar
Strong Bad
Have I annoyed her today?
 
Posts: 4572
Joined: 26 Mar 2003, 16:53
Location: Y'know, I don't recall having done anything for a while. But I still feel like I deserve a smoke.

Re: NPC Stat Debating

Postby Ranbir » 08 Jun 2009, 18:16

I'm not suggesting the total RTKXI experience. I'm not suggesting the sign up rejig mean only one skill on choice. It is more about trimming the number of skills a Hero has and in their place give him a special skill. It gives them that heroic uniqueness which can be easier to control(in terms of actual balance testing) than owning 90% of the available skills.
Whenever righteousness declines and unrighteousness increases I make myself a body; In every age I come back, to deliver the holy, to destroy the sin of the sinner, to establish righteousness.

User avatar
Ranbir
♪ Ohh... the wonderful thing about Ranbirs, is Ranbirs are wonderful things! ♪♪
 
Posts: 4458
Joined: 12 Jan 2004, 19:07
Location: The Western Heaven.
Kingdom: Team Ranbir

Next

Return to Hall of Supremacy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 1998–2016 SimRTK Project Team. All Rights Reserved