Innocuous: A Poll

[Big Grizzy]

There is no other pair of skills listed wherein one has all the same listed benefits of another. I am sure the staff have made the formulae for the skills different, but that is not the point I am making. What I am saying is that Innocuous give bonuses to KT ploys and RP benefits related to stealth and Stealth gives bonuses to the exact same things as well as a few other things. If it was directly stated that one increases chance of success and the other increases effect, or something similar in which their stated effects are different, then the point would be moot. In your example of Weaponmaster and Duelist, they do not have the same stated effects. It is true that they both affect duels, but they tell you in their descriptions how they do it, thus showing the very different ways in which they affect it. Your example of Loyalty and Valor is also off because even if they were to provide the exact same bonus to raid, which is highly doubtful, each has their own separate abilities that make them separate skills. What I am trying to say is that without us knowing the difference between Innocuous' effect and Stealth's, there is really no reason to have them as separate skills.

[Ranbir]

Skills heavy on the "rp considerations" are never going to have a standardised consistent bonus consideration. Stuff like that is scary.

If there is a standard bonus that persists throughout, regardless of which plot runner is dealing with it (some are too liberal, some are conservative) then I've got better faith in the whole thing.

[Fledgling Phoenix]

I take no issue with a "same-ness" between Stealth and Innocuous. They potentially imply two different plotting styles: someone with Stealth would be stealthy and sneaky... but if someone spots him, it would be like seeing a ninja-- you know he's a ninja instantly. An Innocuous person would be better to impersonate a guard or servant without someone saying, "That person is obviously not a servant." Two different skills (this is conjecture, of course).

I'm fine with Innocuous staying as it is.

[Jaerdean]

Innocuous (2sp)
So long as your War and Cha are lower than 80 (including items) you will receive extra RP consideration with regards to stealth. You will further gain a bonus to stealth related mechanics in KT Ploys.
(e) -- Extra bonus to relevant mechanics and RP.

Stealth (2sp)
Bonus to Ambush, Fire Ambush, Raid, Fire Raid, and all KT Plots. Bonus to success rate of Elude movement. Reduced chances of being captured in battle. The RP consideration this skill provides is very important.
(e) -- Additional RP consideration and bonuses to KT Plots.

Is it my misunderstanding that Innocuous doesn't directly apply to Stealth as a skill? The word "stealth" in the Innoc description isn't capitalized, whereas every other description, including Stealth there, will have the actual skill capitalized. Is it a typo on the admins' part?

[Big Grizzy]

It isn't capitalized because it is not referring to the skill. That this can be confusing is yet another reason for the skill to be modified or dropped.

[Black Mage]

First off, I want to apologize for coming off as hostile. In many places on the internet, I see veterans taunt newer members on various different subjects, and I mistook a simple misunderstanding as an outright sign of disrespect.

1 & 3B) This will sound like another assumption, a politician or strategist probably wouldn't even this skill in the first place. Most people who want the cap raised are people who want to be the next Altaïr, where they take down their target with ease and absolutely decimate anything that gets in their way. Next to maybe int, war is the most important stat for this type of build, and 80 handicaps it.

4) Duelist and Weaponmaster (which I'm not a big fan of, personally) do completely things. Anything that Innocuous does, stealth does also. In fact, Innocuous even uses the word, "stealth", twice in the description to define itself.

5a) There are standards. Just as Duelist and Weaponmaster are the current standards for a duelist built, Innocuous will be added to the standards for a stealth build if the cap is released.

Saying that Innocuous will "encourage more people to plot actively" is like saying "Weaponmaster will encourage more generals to focus on duel-oriented builds". The only thing that Weaponmaster does is widen the gap between specialized duelists and the norms. If Weaponmaster didn't exist, perhaps an 80 war general would think "Oh, Duelist is only 3 SP, maybe I should take it to strengthen that area in my build and actually have a chance to stand against the 90-wars", but with Weaponmaster, there isn't even a comparison.

5b) You aren't forced to take Duelist and Weaponmaster in a duelist built either, but without it, you'll undoubtedly be at a disadvantage. With only Duelist, you can probably get past people without Duelist, but you won't be able to get past people with both Duelist and Weaponmaster.

To be honest, Innocuous is already the only reason why I'm not including Stealth into my build. Likewise, Stealth is one of the reasons why I'm not putting Raid into my build and Weaponmaster is the reason why a lot of people aren't taking Duelist.

6) With all due respect, this statement makes me believe that you misunderstood my argument entirely.

I don't think Innocuous is garbage. On the contrary, I think that if the cap is raised, it will be too powerful and completely elevate specialized plotters above everyone else. Right now, the cap is what makes it special and what keeps it under control. Without it, it's just another 2SP discouragement for the regulars to plot.

No disrespect was intended and I apologize if it seemed like I was all "Rawr! I'm veteran! You know nothing!" The sim can be difficult to wrap your head around when you first start, it sure was for me, that's all.

You first point is fair enough, why would a strategist want Innocuous? Maybe a bonus to escape rolls? (That's only an idea, I honestly don't know.) I think there are uses no matter what your "class" is, you just have to be more creative with some than others. Finally on this point, if they expect Innocuous will let them be Altair, their collision with reality will hurt like hell. Even the best plotters on the sim kill maybe 5 people a game, at most.

On Innoc's description: It's a hard skill to describe. (I tried for three hours once and failed to come up with anything.) The effect is different.

Duelist/Weaponmaster: Fair enough, you don't really like Weaponmaster, but it is there and does have a use.

Disadvantage: Against other plotters? Maybe a slight one, but plotters never really face off, so it doesn't matter if you are. If you ever do, better plotter wins, Innoc or not.

Your arguement: I didn't misunderstand, I was just pointing out that it's a difference of opinion on the skill and that said difference is pretty much sim-wide.

For the record, my vote is leave as is. I would -like- it to be raised, because then my PC could use it. If I was still on staff, I'd say you were out of your mind for wanting it raised, since it would hurt the balance of the skill badly.

My final point is, even if the cap was raised however, you're not going to see a sudden swing of assassinations or anything. It's just not meant to be a plot backbone like that, but more of an augment to an already nice skill spread.

[Lifeburner]

I think it's fair enough as it is. Well, maybe if you lower the SP requirement?

[SoroSuub1]

You should just take out the skill altogether and if someone's war/cha are below 80, you can assume that they'll be a very bland non-descript (unless otherwise stated).

[Xiao Gau]

You could always give Innocuous a downside. Have it be a penalty for certain pt/kt actions. Or even against other skills. I've seen more than one Leader with Innocuous. The two skills seem to work against each other, in abstract theory.

I'm all for the skill. I agree with the Duelist/Weaponmaster comparison. Innocuous is an asset to stealthy characters, but not vital. I didn't have it on Li, and still managed a fair bit of assassination in Ru Nan during V3. You don't -have- to be Innocuous to be a plotter. You don't even need Stealth. They help, certainly, but you can live without them.

So, I'd say leave the poor thing alone. It's a good skill, a nice little bonus for handicapping yourself to a low war against item heavy duelist types. We'll have to see how the new version of the stat/item spread works out, so it might turn out to be overpowered, but based on past experience I'd say it will be fine.

If you worry it gives plotters an advantage... make friends with a plotter and have them help you with your counter-plots.

[Horvath]

You should just take out the skill altogether and if someone's war/cha are below 80, you can assume that they'll be a very bland non-descript (unless otherwise stated).

Wow interesting idea here, hmm kk got to agree... being innocuous is not that hard if your a nobody.. and in fact it should only be important if your actually charismatic and high war but is still able to be innocuous. now that's something.. coz it means hidding ur true abilities.. =P

i wonder if game mechanics can be catered like that lol. i voted keep it as it is thou, too late for changes imo. k lates.

[Lance of Llanwyln]

You should just take out the skill altogether and if someone's war/cha are below 80, you can assume that they'll be a very bland non-descript (unless otherwise stated).

Wow interesting idea here, hmm kk got to agree... being innocuous is not that hard if your a nobody.. and in fact it should only be important if your actually charismatic and high war but is still able to be innocuous. now that's something.. coz it means hidding ur true abilities.. =P

i wonder if game mechanics can be catered like that lol. i voted keep it as it is thou, too late for changes imo. k lates.

The problem is that the skill encompasses more than your character's appearance. You don't just LOOK average, you are especially skilled at blending in as well. You're great at (actively) hiding in plain sight, basically. That's always been my understanding.

[Cao Chao]

Theoretically, couldn't you be an individual with a striking appearance with the ability to disguise oneself to look ordinary?

[Ranbir]

Then why not just detail that in your plot?

[Cao Chao]

Maybe because it's difficult to be the master of disguise? >.>;

[ShadeofPower]

You should just take out the skill altogether and if someone's war/cha are below 80, you can assume that they'll be a very bland non-descript (unless otherwise stated).


Wow interesting idea here, hmm kk got to agree... being innocuous is not that hard if your a nobody.. and in fact it should only be important if your actually charismatic and high war but is still able to be innocuous. now that's something.. coz it means hidding ur true abilities.. =P

i wonder if game mechanics can be catered like that lol. i voted keep it as it is thou, too late for changes imo. k lates.

I can't agree with this because In my opinion it just doesn't make sense.It takes PLENTY of skill to do that. If the guards of a city are after a man with a giant scar on his face, and the man with the giant scar on his face KNOWS that, he's going to try to hide it. Now whether or not his body language will give it away that he is hiding it is where innocuous would come in. The man without innocuous gets very panicked and afraid, which in turn forces him to give off tell tale signs that he is hiding something. While the man with innocuous seemingly instantly blends into a crowd, or sits down onto a bench and non-chalantly reads a book, so as not to be found out. It's a skill difference, pretending that anyone whom is not charismatic or heavily built is good at blending into a crowd is like saying anyone whom is charismatic could lead an army, or anyone whom is heavily built could easily play pro football. these things are but one skill in an environment that encompasses several.