Innocuous: A Poll

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What to do about Innocuous

Keep it as is.
75
50%
As is, but increase the cap for (e).
33
22%
Get rid of the cap.
8
5%
Get rid of the skill.
35
23%
 
Total votes : 151

Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Zhao Ren » 28 Jun 2009, 19:15

SoroSuub1 wrote:You should just take out the skill altogether and if someone's war/cha are below 80, you can assume that they'll be a very bland non-descript (unless otherwise stated).

I disagree. Charisma, contrary to what it seems is the public opinion, is actually more than just looks. It's also how appealing you are to people via your personality and manners. So while someone may appear remarkably good looking (a plus to Cha), they might be known as a bit of a jerk (a knock to Cha), and those balance out and say... give a 50 or something to represent this mix. To say that anything under 80 Cha means you're nondescript and bland is dictating to a lot of characters and turns Cha into little more than the "appearance" stat people seem to always make it :?
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby PaintedJezebel » 21 Jul 2009, 06:48

Zhao Ren wrote:I disagree. Charisma, contrary to what it seems is the public opinion, is actually more than just looks. It's also how appealing you are to people via your personality and manners. So while someone may appear remarkably good looking (a plus to Cha), they might be known as a bit of a jerk (a knock to Cha), and those balance out and say... give a 50 or something to represent this mix. To say that anything under 80 Cha means you're nondescript and bland is dictating to a lot of characters and turns Cha into little more than the "appearance" stat people seem to always make it :?

Oh sweet Lord tell me about it. I must have gotten six letters that immediately made a point of praising Ling's "beauty" (90+4 Charisma), and I ignored all of them. Admittedly I haven't put up a bio or description for her just yet, but that just annoyed the hell out of me, as I didn't build her with anything close to that in mind.

And YET, at the same time, because of her charisma (and how I interpret it in my head/in RP), I can't see Ling as EVER being innocuous. She's too forceful a personality, and too shamelessly (even proudly) unique to fit that. The caps make sense to me - considering the description of attribute levels in this sim, which are somewhat different than most of the ones I've played in the past, I would even say a cap of 75 or 70 makes more sense. 80 is a very good stat in this setup.

And someone with a stat below 80 is not necessarily innocuous... for a wide variety of reasons. But someone with a War or Cha over 80 almost certainly wouldn't be.

I agree with the idea that the Innocuous skill is somewhat counterintuitive to the Leader skills...

Edit: Now I DO have a biography! Turns out writing this rant of a post inspired me to finally put Ling down in words.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Horvath » 21 Jul 2009, 10:28

i have to disagree with the intent of innocuous skill... i ment.. if innocuous is a skill as yall describe it, and to be less depended on war and cha then why limit it by the war and cha stat in the first place..

i think this is where it implies that innocuous is being taken as a characteristic perhaps behaviour that cannot be turn off rather than a person skilled at blending when he needs to.

if yall want a innocuous skill that can be use at will then my as well not have the stat limits or something. at the moment that's like the weaponmaster can be use only by people with below 80 war or acumen skill can be use by people with below 80 pol going by the way yall understood it? =P
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Carpevis » 22 Jul 2009, 15:27

Horvath wrote:i have to disagree with the intent of innocuous skill... i ment.. if innocuous is a skill as yall describe it, and to be less depended on war and cha then why limit it by the war and cha stat in the first place..

i think this is where it implies that innocuous is being taken as a characteristic perhaps behaviour that cannot be turn off rather than a person skilled at blending when he needs to.

if yall want a innocuous skill that can be use at will then my as well not have the stat limits or something. at the moment that's like the weaponmaster can be use only by people with below 80 war or acumen skill can be use by people with below 80 pol going by the way yall understood it? =P


I think folks forget that War and Charisma both have an innate presence. THAT is what's impossible to turn off at high levels. Innocuous IS a skill. Being nondescript is a learned trait. But I believe the point of the cap is because for people with a high degree of "presence" which can't be turned off, even the most skilled in being innocuous will be noticed more than those who don't have that "presence".

The cap doesn't mean innocuous won't work once you hit a certain level. It's just increasingly less effective. (Is that an oxymoron?)

Let's take Elvis as an example. Highly charismatic - so much so, that even when he was dead, he kept being 'spotted' all over the world. Being dead is about as innocuous as you can be and people STILL thought they spotted Elvis.

An argument could be made against the War cap, I suppose, but even then, people well versed in doing damage to other people tend to radiate that ability. Without insulting other Vets or active duty military out there, the way they move, their posture, their conduct seems to put out something innate that others pick up on. Like a hidden predator among prey (As an analogy only), the prey notices the presence of a predator unless the predator is VERY good at hiding (being innocuous).

I remember one time in a bar I was hanging with some guys from base. I didn't know them from Adam. We were just a bunch of sailors having some beers. But there was something about them that made them stand out from the average swabbie. I knew this, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

Some Marines came in, saw us and, well, it was like a 1940's movie. The insults started out semi-friendly, then got kinda ugly and then one could say my horrified soul was in the middle of a bar fight. About ten Marines, six sailors and me (I was a Corpsman, so had split loyalties there).

It was over in less than two minutes. The six sailors were SEAL's. The Marines were tough, but they didn't know who they were messing with. That element of surprise combined with the SEAL's skills meant I was patching up a bunch of Marines in my off-time. (As a testament to the SEAL's skills, no one had any broken bones - only some seriously bruised egos.)

But the point is I knew these guys were "different" without knowing a thing about them before hand. And they're TRAINED to be innocuous. If the Marines who came in had been a little less drunk, they may have noticed, too. They sure noticed afterward.

So I think the caps (which are badly termed as caps, since it doesn't cap the skill, just shows the point at which it starts to become less effective) should stay or we just do without the skill. Not knowing how the effectiveness is increased for (e), I can't say whether increasing the limits for War and Cha for (e) would be necessary or not.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Sun Tang » 01 Aug 2009, 22:52

Carp,

Leadership can be an innate presence that can be viewed in behavior of very young children, so can a high IQ, so can an uncanny ability to understand how to write read, and understand the natural way of things. You cant say charisma and war are the only innate qualities...or even the stats that are more innate. I would probably describe leadership as the most innate and war as the very last, that is if you are ranking in order of being natural abilities. Charisma maybe 2nd and int/pol tied for third. War last, def not innate...all people with any athletic ability have trained hard and must continuously do so, not very natural.

War and Charm may have a direct impact on your appearance and demeanor and presence...but so could leadership and other stats. Some examples...Leaders have a commanding presence, warriors have an intimidating presence, people with Charisma have a well...charming/swindling presence. People with high Int might look smart or speak very smartly or talk in terms that blow you away and seem very fluent in their skills, a genuis presence.

So technically...the reason you are putting a cap on Charm and war is because they make you more obvious...and you might be easier to point out...but really any stat above 80 should make you stand out..

Put someone who is a natural leader in with a group of random people, and i assure you they will stand out as much as any warrior, or salesman, recruiter, or buisnessman or ...commuinty organizer. :lol: (so long as no one in the group is a celeb)

Innocuous is a cool skill. There should be no level caps on any skills, even innocuous. If you put a cap on innocuous, may as well have cap on stealth since they go hand in hand and may as well put caps on other skills. I thought V5 was moving away from skillcap/skillmins?
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Carpevis » 02 Aug 2009, 21:38

Sun Tang wrote:Carp,

Leadership can be an innate presence that can be viewed in behavior of very young children, so can a high IQ, so can an uncanny ability to understand how to write read, and understand the natural way of things. You cant say charisma and war are the only innate qualities...or even the stats that are more innate. I would probably describe leadership as the most innate and war as the very last, that is if you are ranking in order of being natural abilities. Charisma maybe 2nd and int/pol tied for third. War last, def not innate...all people with any athletic ability have trained hard and must continuously do so, not very natural.

War and Charm may have a direct impact on your appearance and demeanor and presence...but so could leadership and other stats. Some examples...Leaders have a commanding presence, warriors have an intimidating presence, people with Charisma have a well...charming/swindling presence. People with high Int might look smart or speak very smartly or talk in terms that blow you away and seem very fluent in their skills, a genuis presence.

So technically...the reason you are putting a cap on Charm and war is because they make you more obvious...and you might be easier to point out...but really any stat above 80 should make you stand out..

Put someone who is a natural leader in with a group of random people, and i assure you they will stand out as much as any warrior, or salesman, recruiter, or buisnessman or ...commuinty organizer. :lol: (so long as no one in the group is a celeb)

Innocuous is a cool skill. There should be no level caps on any skills, even innocuous. If you put a cap on innocuous, may as well have cap on stealth since they go hand in hand and may as well put caps on other skills. I thought V5 was moving away from skillcap/skillmins?


I think the reason for the cap on war and cha are there primarily due to trying to mitigate the 'ninja effect'. Some0one with an insanely high war being able to slip in and slice throats and slip out. Cha was thrown in mostly because of 'fame factor' and so that people didn't scream that they were hamstringing Innocuous for just the most useful stat that can use it.

Personally, I'm for getting rid of the skill and just going with Stealth or vice versa and getting rid of stealth and going with innocuous since they're two sides of the same coin.

As for my previous post, I was just making a point that those who are charismatic and highly trained in war skills tend to stand out, thus justifying the caps.

Regarding your contention that all high stats will make someone stand out, I disagree. I'd say that a great leader does NOT stand out unless they are charismatic - or recognized - as well. The same for a high Pol. Highly intelligent people know how NOT to stand out, if they desire anonymity. Some of the most intelligent people I've ever met were wall flowers and invisible at parties. Some of the best leaders I ever knew could walk into a room and no one would notice. Politicians rely on charm or name recognition to stand out, but unless you recognized them, you wouldn't know them from Adam on the streets. In the game, politicians aren't leaders per se - they're administrators (read: bureaucrats) and by and large more uninteresting people I've never met.

If someone is recognized, yes, that can make them stand out. But war and charisma seem well suited to being capped while one can successfully argue that the other stats have less impact on whether one can be innocuous than War and Cha.

Just my life observations here. I don't think we'll settle anything except to irritate the admins enough to dump it from the next game. ;)
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Georgie » 03 Aug 2009, 02:39

Briefly inserting my nose where it wasn't before:

I think the Innocuous cap is high as it is. I wouldn't mind seeing (e) raise the cap- if it was to its current point of 80. It's a fantastic skill for several reasons, but has created the impression that, without it, someone is somehow sub-par at stealth. I think it could do with being rewrote to KT sneaking what Networking is to Searching: colorful, fun, and very useful for a special type of action. Remove the emphasis on RP considerations to remove the impression it makes plots go down smoother than Dr. Pepper.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Ranbir » 06 Aug 2009, 06:25

Absolutely remove the emphasis. The main function of skills and stats are not for plots but for KTs/PTs/Wars, the structured stuff. They should be convenient bonuses for RP/plots, since to what degree these enhance plots are not pre-determined. One player's innoc consideration maybe be less than someone else's. Because the real meat of the plots are in what they actually submitted, not what their build is. The fact that is a staple in this game, I find it irregular for a specific skill to explicitly state that it has a role in RP and yet every other skill does not do the same.

I still think it should go though. It is much more appropriate for someone to plot being innocuous, rather than have a skill which naturally assumes so. It is an inconsistency.
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