Innocuous: A Poll

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What to do about Innocuous

Keep it as is.
75
50%
As is, but increase the cap for (e).
33
22%
Get rid of the cap.
8
5%
Get rid of the skill.
35
23%
 
Total votes : 151

Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Carpevis » 24 May 2009, 00:31

Okay, it's been taking up enough space in the V5 suggestions thread long enough, it's time someone put up a poll. Here it is. Vote as you will.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby yochitoranaga » 24 May 2009, 00:57

in my humble opinion, a skill that only affects roleplay values and nothing in the actual mechanics should be left in the way the player roleplays his character...

it should be included into stealth, as basically, being stealthy requires, amongst other things, to be discret and not stand out...
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Ren Zhe » 24 May 2009, 01:01

Innocuous wrote:You will further gain a bonus to stealth related mechanics in KT Ploys.


There are mechanical benefits to it, and they are pretty good benefits. I did the KT Plot formuals.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Xarease » 24 May 2009, 03:39

I don't want to continue this in the OOC thread, but I do want to get my final thoughts in.
Black Mage wrote:First of all, drop the hostility. I haven't been disrespectful to you, don't be towards me.

Since you seem to think I'm dancing around your words, I'll address them point by point.

1)
Xarease wrote:You're right, the dozens of people crying for the cap to get raised must be a figment of my imagination.


No, that's not what I said in the slightest. You said, quote: "Innocuous already got buffed this version with the lower PC stats and ease to get the stats that you want, but right now, people basically just want to turn it into Stealth(e2)."

That's making an assumption or just being smarmy, take your pick. That because someone wants the cap raised, they want it to be Stealth(e2), instead of having a legitimate point of some kind, such as the logical considerations behind it that The Sixth Tiger brought up, in that because you have 81 war doesn't make you a walking pile of meat. You just summarily dismissed the entire other side of the debate.

It wasn't buffed either, the playing field just became more level since targets for plots no longer have stats in the 105+ range.

2)
Xarease wrote:It would clearly be easier to meet the requirements with a raised cap than it would be with a lowered cap.


We agree on this. This was never a point of contention. My point was that you said it's easier now than it was in the past, and it was easy in the past anyway.

3a)
Xarease wrote:If it's true that the consideration gained from Innocuous would be exactly the same when every plotter in the sim is running around with it[...]


It's not true, that was my point. No two plots are identical, so no two consideration instances will be the same.

3b)
Xarease wrote:[...]as it was when you had to actually struggle to fit a set of requirements to obtain it, then I'll rest my case (on the note that it'd really, really suck to be you rulers).


See above, you never had to struggle to meet the requirements unless you were a duelist or a recruiter. Politicians, Developers, Strategists, Average officers, Generals and Hybrids all had no issue getting under the cap.

Secondly, the ruler still has plenty of resources to counter this new advantage for plotters, such as hiring PCs as bodyguards, which most rulers do.

4)
Xarease wrote:What is stealth(e) if not an augment to stealth?


Bad comparison, Stealth (e) is an enhanced version of Stealth. Innocuous is a separate skill with some crossover, but meant to be stand alone. Think of it like Duelist and Weaponmaster. One represents being a good fighter in general, one represents a specific aspect of fighting.

5a)
Xarease wrote:As for encouraging plots, if you were an officer with merely Stealth before, would you be more or less likely to plot now that the plotting standards have been raised to having both Innocuous and Stealth?


That's not the standard. The only "standards", which are more requirements than standards, are a valid IC reason and reasonable IC proximity for the needed actions. Everything else varies wildly depending on the person who wrote the plot and the reactions of all parties after it begins.

There is a "recommended" plotter's build, but that's more personal taste.

5b)
Xarease wrote:Being forced to spend an extra 2 SP is really encouraging!


You aren't forced to spend it. See above example about Duelist and Weaponmaster. If you want to be involved in sneaky shenanigans, you take Stealth. If you want to be even better at it, you take Innocuous too. You're by no means required to take it and can get by easily enough without it, if you plot decently.

To those who like to squeeze every advantage they can for what they do though, the 2 SP for Innocuous is more than worth it.

6)
Xarease wrote:And are my assumptions incorrect?


It's hard to be correct or incorrect about an opinion. You're entitled to think that Innocuous is worthless, for quite a few characters it is, I was simply trying to provide some reasons why someone would want it.

First off, I want to apologize for coming off as hostile. In many places on the internet, I see veterans taunt newer members on various different subjects, and I mistook a simple misunderstanding as an outright sign of disrespect.

1 & 3B) This will sound like another assumption, a politician or strategist probably wouldn't even this skill in the first place. Most people who want the cap raised are people who want to be the next Altaïr, where they take down their target with ease and absolutely decimate anything that gets in their way. Next to maybe int, war is the most important stat for this type of build, and 80 handicaps it.

4) Duelist and Weaponmaster (which I'm not a big fan of, personally) do completely things. Anything that Innocuous does, stealth does also. In fact, Innocuous even uses the word, "stealth", twice in the description to define itself.

5a) There are standards. Just as Duelist and Weaponmaster are the current standards for a duelist built, Innocuous will be added to the standards for a stealth build if the cap is released.

Saying that Innocuous will "encourage more people to plot actively" is like saying "Weaponmaster will encourage more generals to focus on duel-oriented builds". The only thing that Weaponmaster does is widen the gap between specialized duelists and the norms. If Weaponmaster didn't exist, perhaps an 80 war general would think "Oh, Duelist is only 3 SP, maybe I should take it to strengthen that area in my build and actually have a chance to stand against the 90-wars", but with Weaponmaster, there isn't even a comparison.

5b) You aren't forced to take Duelist and Weaponmaster in a duelist built either, but without it, you'll undoubtedly be at a disadvantage. With only Duelist, you can probably get past people without Duelist, but you won't be able to get past people with both Duelist and Weaponmaster.

To be honest, Innocuous is already the only reason why I'm not including Stealth into my build. Likewise, Stealth is one of the reasons why I'm not putting Raid into my build and Weaponmaster is the reason why a lot of people aren't taking Duelist.

6) With all due respect, this statement makes me believe that you misunderstood my argument entirely.

I don't think Innocuous is garbage. On the contrary, I think that if the cap is raised, it will be too powerful and completely elevate specialized plotters above everyone else. Right now, the cap is what makes it special and what keeps it under control. Without it, it's just another 2SP discouragement for the regulars to plot.

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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Sun Tang » 24 May 2009, 05:55

I have said plenty in regards to this issue. I will not go into detail, i have beat enough dead horses in regards to this topic all over the freaking web site. I will simply give my opinion.

My opinion is to remove the innocuous cap, or at least raise the cap to 90, or simply 85. Compromise.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby DivineNecromancerZL » 24 May 2009, 07:56

Skill Descriptions wrote:Innocuous (2sp)
So long as your War and Cha are lower than 80 (including items) you will receive extra RP consideration with regards to stealth. You will further gain a bonus to stealth related mechanics in KT Ploys.
(e) -- Extra bonus to relevant mechanics and RP.


Stat Descriptors wrote:81-90: Outstanding, stats in this range represent the higher percentage of society, officers in this range quickly excel and become leaders in their fields. Weaker ability in other fields can be offset with competence of this degree.


First time I've said anything in regards to this.

I'd say the current cap is fair enough. If I was really in a position where I'd have to change it, I'd drop the cap to 70 for War and Cha and have 80 as the cap with extra bonuses for the (e) version.

I find it hard to see how one could be innocuous when you become one of those "leaders in their fields". To me, "Leaders in their fields" says that these people are sort of like celebrities (a famous swordsman, ect.) and can be picked out by your average Joe Schmo.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby GreenFabre » 24 May 2009, 08:11

As it is lo~
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Xe of Greed » 24 May 2009, 13:54

As it is. Higher and it will encourage lazy plotters getting hacked to pieces.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Ranbir » 24 May 2009, 20:59

Lazy plotters get hacked to pieces regardless. The skill has no bearing on that.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Big Grizzy » 24 May 2009, 21:28

Innocuous' desription is the best arguement against its existence. Its effects are:
RP consideration with regards to stealth. You will further gain a bonus to stealth related mechanics in KT Ploys.

By it's own admission, it is a variant on the Stealth skill and quite redundant. It either needs a reworking to be truly different from Stealth, or complete removal.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Xe of Greed » 24 May 2009, 21:41

By that logic, several battle skills are variant of other skills. It boosts stealth in the same way Valor boosts Raid, but like Valor, it has its own effects.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Patricoo » 24 May 2009, 22:09

Sun Tang wrote:I have said plenty in regards to this issue. I will not go into detail, i have beat enough dead horses in regards to this topic all over the freaking web site. I will simply give my opinion.

My opinion is to remove the innocuous cap, or at least raise the cap to 90, or simply 85. Compromise.


The greatest pull seems to leave it as is, and then people who think the skill is useless and it should be gotten rid of. It's always been this way with this skill, and compromising wouldn't actually be a compromise at all.

This poll has spoken what a lot of people think. Either leave it, or get rid of it. I endorse both actions.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Xian Zhu Xuande » 24 May 2009, 22:12

Keep it as it is. ;)
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Big Grizzy » 24 May 2009, 22:14

Xe of Greed wrote:By that logic, several battle skills are variant of other skills. It boosts stealth in the same way Valor boosts Raid, but like Valor, it has its own effects.

Not exactly. Synergies are one thing, but all stated affects of Innocuous are related to Stealth. Your example of Valor has stated effects separate of Raid, as do all the other Raid synergies (Arson, Loyalty, Stealth). Stealth provides bonuses to all the same things as Innocuous
Bonus to... all KT ploys. RP considerations
as well as having other uses
Bonus to Ambush, Fire Ambush, Raid, Fire Raid. Reduced chances of being captured in battle.
Their expertise benefits are the exact same, only worded slightly differently.
Extra bonus to relevant mechanics and RP.
Additional RP consideration and bonuses to KT Plots.
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Re: Innocuous: A Poll

Postby Xe of Greed » 24 May 2009, 23:09

They're exactly the same? Wow, I didn't know you had access to the staff forum.

By what you said, you can easily say Loyalty and Valor add the same bonus to raid... But they most likely don't. Your statement is false, and, without anything to back it up, pointless.

Innocuous (2sp)
So long as your War and Cha are lower than 80 (including items) you will receive extra RP consideration with regards to stealth. You will further gain a bonus to stealth related mechanics in KT Ploys.
(e) -- Extra bonus to relevant mechanics and RP.


Stealth (2sp)
Bonus to Ambush, Fire Ambush, Raid, Fire Raid, and all KT Plots. Bonus to success rate of Elude movement. Reduced chances of being captured in battle. The RP consideration this skill provides is very important.
(e) -- Additional RP consideration and bonuses to KT Plots.


They add to each other. Innocuous doesn't just boost Stealth, Stealth boosts it, like Weapon Master and Duelist.
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