V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Tarrot » 27 Jan 2009, 13:18

Jiang Wei (205) 91-93-90-35-45 |Skills: Aid(300), Ambush(450), Crossbowman(150), Cunning(150), Duelist(250), Footsoldier(500), Formation(350), Jeer(100) Leader(500), Light Infantry(500), Rally(100) Reversal(100), Scout(200), Study(100), Tactician(250), Terrain(250) | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found

- Starts off seeing through Zhuge's schemes and counters with his own ambush. Briefly duels Zhao Yun and his praised by Zhao and Zhuge. Goes to save his mother and defending Jicheng and his cohorts get outsmarted by Zhuge. Gets tricked into going after grain and loses his city, defects to Zhuge, and gets his friends to defect even though Rob & Co. Leads the Qiangs into a trap where they get mostly routed. Ambushes Cao Zhen, and tells Zhuge how to get into Han Zhong, and later ambushes and kills Fei Yao. Smites Guo Huai and Sun Li from behind, launches a couple sneak attacks on Sima Yi, is placed in some more ambushes, garrisons an area for show, holds off Guo Huai's troops when they come for the oxen, is Zhuge's messenger basically when he dies, knows a mountain pass to get back, and handles the rear guard when Wei Yan acts up. He launches a volley of abuse against him, and Ma Dai kills Wei Yan. Proposes a campaign, plans to ally with the Qiangs, but they don't come. Takes Xiahou Ba's advice but Chen Tai sees through it, and he's routed on this campaign. Cuts off the Wei supply lines and kills Xu Zi when other generals have difficulties. Traps Sima Zhao in a mountain, but the Wei generals ally with the Qiang, and he flees, but not before catching one of Guo Huai's arrows and killing him with it. 3rd campaign, initially victorious against a bunch of Wei jobbers, disregards Zhang Yi's advice, and gets tricked into a retreat by Deng Ai. Plans to attack again, but Deng Ai sees through him, and manages to beat Jiang Wei to his marching point. Recognizes a trap, retires, handles the rear guard, and gets saved by one of the Zhang Yi's who dies while doing so. Launches another assault when Zhuge Dan rebels, ignores Qiao Zhou's rebuke, attacks Sima Wang, and duels Deng Zhong thinking he's Deng Ai, and retreats when he hears Zhuge Dan was defeated. Orders his troops to stand fast when Deng Ai attacks, which they do, then out-formations Deng Ai and Jiang Wei, and predicts Deng Ai's attacks on his troops, but gets called back by the Emperor. Launches another campaign, sees through Wang Guan's actions, tricks Deng Ai with his supplies, but Wang Guan burns stuff instead of fleeing making the victory costly. Xiahou Ba dies on the next campaign as his plans are saw through, and duels Deng Ai for a while. Is marginally successful against Wei, but gets called back again by Huang Hao. He goes to farm in Tazhong, gets attacked there, gets routed, but manages to survive. Beats Zhuge Xu, but Deng Ai outflanks him and Shu falls. Slanders Deng Ai, gets Zhong Hui on his side, and manages to slander Deng Ai into being captured. Has a heart attack and his betrayed by his men and he dies.
- SGZ: Patrolling with his governor when Zhuge attacks, the governor flees and Jiang Wei defects. Quells some uprisings and engages Wei generals after Zhuge dies. Failed on the second northern campaign, noted for his relations with tribes. Attacks Nan An, retreats cause of food problems. Attacks Long Xi, kills Xu Zhi, but has to retreat with civilians. Later attacks Di Dao, routes Wang Jing, fails to take Di Dao and retreat. Fails on the next campaign because Hu Ji doesn't help him and gets routed. Attacks Wei when Zhuge Dan rebels, but they don't meet his attacks. Suggest the counter-attack plan against Wei, which is accepted. Is beat by Deng Ai in another campaign, and doesn't return to Cheng Du when he learns Huang Hao has ill machinations against him. Beat at Yang Ping, retreats back to Jian Ge, but Shu surrenders due to Deng Ai climbing a mountain and getting Shu to surrender. Surrenders to Zhong Hui, plans to usurp him and attack again, but is found out and killed. Wiki has nothing substantial, no access to the ZZTJ, thoughts on stats:

Lead: On the battlefield, he was successful as a general, and had quite a few successes to his credit on offense and defense. He was however beat by Deng Ai (and the two pretty much revolve around each other), He does enough and achieves enough to break 90, but barely, I think 91's fine.

War: Duels an old Zhao Yun, mostly undefeated in dueling, 93's fine.

Int: Another one where at times he showed brilliance, at times was out-smarted and routed. Again, 90 is fine.

Pol: I agree with the assessment on not really being politically active and letting Huang Hao get too much power, and that he pretty much abandoned the Shu political area. Farming aside, he'll get Farmer for that, 35's fine.

Cha: He wasn't popular with Huang Hao and wasn't popular with Shu near the end, but I think he gets too much of a drop here. He convinced Zhong Hui to defect and in spite of his losses maintained control of the military. Not to mention his connections with various non-Chinese tribes. I'll go 65 on him for this.

Skills: Aid (to the aid of others on multiple occasions), Ambush (e) (numerous successful ambushes), Cunning (numerous plans throughout history and the novel), Dash (flights, pursuits), Duelist (noted duelist, not enough for (e)), Farmer (going to farm for his troops), Formation (e) (he's Jiang Wei), Jeer (many insults), Leader (career general), Missile (e) (killing Guo Huai after catching his arrow, that deserves an (e)), Raid (attacks on Sima Yi), Rally (numerous times), Reversal (e) (saw through a great many plans, including Novel Zhuge), Rumour (e) (getting Deng Ai killed via one), Siegecraft (holding off the enemies), Terrain (analysis of terrain for many plans), Trap (e) (numerous times leading enemies into traps), Wall (his defense against Deng Ai's raid), Wile (playing Zhong Hui and Deng Ai off each other)

Jiang Wei (205) 91-93-90-35-65 |Skills: Aid, Ambush (e), Cunning, Dash, Duelist, Farmer, Formation (e), Jeer, Leader, Missile (e), Raid, Rally, Reversal (e), Rumour (e), Siegecraft, Terrain, Trap (e), Wall, Wile | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found

Revised:
Political: Farmer
Military: Aid (2), Ambush (3), Cunning (6), Dash (7), Formation (e) (11), Jeer (12), Missile (14), Rally (15), Reversal (e) (17), Rumour (18), Trap (e) (20), Wall (22)
Other: Duelist

Honestly felt bad about removing a few of those skills, moreso than some other generals, but I didn't think he was worthy of anything really far over 20 SP.

Jiang Wei (205) 91-93-90-35-65 |Skills: Aid, Ambush, Cunning, Dash, Duelist, Farmer, Formation (e), Jeer, Missile, Rally, Reversal (e), Rumour (e), Trap (e), Wall | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found
Xiong Qibing (191) 94*-59-90*-82*-85* | Skills: Ambush, Arson, Dash, Jeer, Raid, Rally, Rumour (e), Stealth, Terrain, Trap, Wile, Zeal (e) | Items: Draft Horse [mount] (Lead +1), The Duke of Zhou's Art of War [treatise] (Pol +2, Int +1, +5% success to Wile ploys), Black Onyx Elephant Pendant [jewel] (Cha +1, Pol +1, Int +1), Jade Dragon Pendant [jewel] (Cha +2, Int +1), Trapper's Map (Lead +1, *Trap), Calligraphy (+2 Bond)
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Highonpawns » 28 Jan 2009, 01:17

If I may interject here, giving any general 90s in lead, war, and int is terribly unbalanced, especially when Jiang Wei has done nothing (historically) to deserve anything above a 50 in any of those stats (this may be exaggeration).

While I understand that the current policy will inflate his stats. Please, for the sanity and balance of the sim, move all of those 90s into the mid to low 80s.
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Dong Zhou » 28 Jan 2009, 06:54

Jiang Wei is a liability in practise, but in terms of stat he is as broken as Deng Ai, Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang and others but I would agree with Tarrot in that the novel Jiang Wei deserves those kind of stats. Why exactly does the novel Jiang Wei not deserve high stats Highpawns?
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Shinpusan » 28 Jan 2009, 07:25

I don't think that he's saying that the novel Boyue doesn't deserve it, but that the historical one doesn't deserve them so much that a lowering of stats is in order. 'Cause I mean, really, Boyue definitely doesn't deserve those stats. =\
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Dong Zhou » 28 Jan 2009, 07:32

We go best source for stats, not worst source
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Shinpusan » 28 Jan 2009, 07:44

I'm well aware, but shouldn't there be a meeting place between the two?
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Dong Zhou » 28 Jan 2009, 08:25

A lot of people recall the novel characters or know the novel a lot more then history, they know the novel Zhuge Liang awesome as is Sima Yi, part of the novel is that Jiang Wei was a very skilled general with personality flaws. We don't like to dock the history guys, He Qi, Liu Bei, Yuan Shao for novel write downs so in the end, best of both worlds.
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Shinpusan » 28 Jan 2009, 08:41

Well, I could understand if Jiang Wei was solely a novel entity, but he was indeed a living being, and is a historical figure. So I fail to see why he doesn't get knocked for his historical failures. I mean, "the history guys" get knocked for their failures in history, despite the fact that they are also in the novel. Why not Boyue?

I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, I'm just curious.
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Dong Zhou » 28 Jan 2009, 08:48

The history guys don't get knocked for novel deeds though, or at least they shouldn't be.
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Shinpusan » 28 Jan 2009, 08:56

So I guess it all depends on who you deem "history guys" and who you don't. Aside from the obvious, such as He Qi and others that weren't in the novel. =\
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Bourne » 28 Jan 2009, 09:13

I would have to research on Jiang Wei however going from memory, in the novel his track record in battle was borderline awful. He lost practically every battle he ever fought against Deng Ai and while the novel does attempt to shadow the blame onto others it does not change the logical notion Jiang Wei was to blame. His strategies also consisted of very similar tactics despite him having lost previous. It was his shortsightedness that resulted in the deaths of both Zhang Yi and Xiahou Ba.

As for war didn't the duel between him and Zhao Yun last barely a few rounds? Regardless Yun was pushing 70s and was far from the exceptionally warrior he once was. If war is handed out this easily, Sima Yi should both into the 70-80s for effectiving holding back Wei Yan even if just barely.

Not that I like to cite the RTK video games however Koei heavily favors Shu and even they do not stat Jiang Wei this superior; simply put even by novel standards he was simply not this good. As for the sim itself, Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang and etc do not have the War statistic that Jiang does currently. This makes him incredibly useful for ploys, commanding units and dealing damage all in one whereas Cao and Liang cannot deal heavy damage due to their decent or abysmal war. This essentially makes Jiang Wei the best GMNPC in the entire game and so unbelievely broken if a ruler were to ever hire him he could easily streamroll any kingdoms that did not have an impressive amount of officers.

I would say the same in regards to Deng Ai as well, although in Deng Ai's case he is more of a Cao Cao in terms of Lead and Int over War.
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Dong Zhou » 28 Jan 2009, 09:24

So I guess it all depends on who you deem "history guys" and who you don't. Aside from the obvious, such as He Qi and others that weren't in the novel. =\


Those who are better in history then the novel like Han Hao. Or Liu Bei

Bounre: From what I recall, Jiang lost campaigns, usually due to supplies, recalls on the verge of success and sometimes due to him but he wins a lot of battles in them as a leader and a tactician. As a warrior, he is certainly one of the best of the latter era, I would say only Wen Yang compares to him personally. Yes his duel with Zhao Yun may be short (can't recall) but he killed a lot of people in duels and hand to hand combat.
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Tarrot » 28 Jan 2009, 09:38

On Statting: I combine novel and history if they don't contradict each other. Thus, Liu Bei's actions at Bowang, or Jiang Wei's better overall results take precedence over his faults in the history.

On Jiang Wei's stats: Most games Jiang Wei would not be active (or at lower stats for being younger), so he's not truly game breaking. Plus, Deng Ai and many other generals have comparable stats, so he's not even that imbalanced against other GM NPCs. Anyways, Deng Ai.

Deng Ai (196) 90-77-95-76-43 | Skills: Acumen (500), Administration (250), Aid (150), Ambush (400), Arson (100), Cunning (400), Duelist (250), Farmer (950), Jeer (200), Leader (260), Logistics (250), Military Engineer (100), Riot (250), Scout (340), Tactician (300), Terrain (1000) | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found

- Stutterer, master of terrain, quick-witted. Duels 50 bouts with Wen Yang, goes with armies to fight Gongqiu Jian, kills someone, and helps route Jian. Gets the aid of the Qiangs and tricks Jiang Wei into retreating. Predicts the exact reasons Jiang Wei would stay and fight, and sees through Jiang Wei's ruse. Double marches to Nanan, then helps route Jiang Wei. Recognizes Jiang Wei's advantage in position and doesn't seek to fight him. Launches an underground assault on Jiang Wei's camp, and loses to Jiang Wei in a test of formations. Tried to raid Jiang Wei's camp but got saw through and came out injured. Gets tricked by Jiang Wei again and flees into the mountains when ambushed. Sees through Jiang Wei going to Taoyang, and attacks him there with a night raid. Duels Jiang Wei briefly then realizes his plans. Goes and almost routes Zhang Yi, but Jiang Wei comes to the rescue and defeats Deng Ai. Makes a map of Shu because of the actions of his spies. Is the CiC of the final invasion, predicting Jiang Wei's moves. Crushes Jiang's underlings, dislikes Zhong Hui, and comes up with the idea to climb mountains to attack Shu. Wraps himself in blankets to roll down hills, and finds out Zhuge predicted he'd show up there. Gets Ma Miao to surrender, tricks Zhuge Zhan, besieges Mianzhu, ambushes and kills Zhuge Zhan, and then takes Cheng Du. Handles administration, gets drunk and arrogant, as well as upset at Jiang Wei surrendering to Zhong Hui, acts arrogantly to the Simas, gets arrested, dies.
- SGZ: Minor role in administration before Sima Yi saw him and added him on the staff, proposes the complete overhaul of the western area in farming to supply 100,000 troops. Named Governor of Nan An, repels Jiang Wei, predicts his movement, meets him at Bai Shui, then Tao Cheng and gets him to retreat. Proposes dis-unifying the various Hun tribes. Cultivates barren land in Ru Nan, predicts Zhuge Ke's fall, proposes a new system for reward, and becomes a governor in another place. Dashes to Yue Jia, repairs a bridge, and allows Sima Shi to capture the city. Predicts where Sun Jun will cross and beats him when he arrives. Predicts another northern campaign by Jiang Wei, and beats him badly at Duan Gu. Beats Jiang Wei some more to the point he retreats to Jiang Ge. Goes up the mountain and takes out Shu. Gets his Wu invasion plan shot down and gets upset. Noted that he'd repaired fortifications while in Long Xi, and they held againt the Qiangs. Wiki has nothing, on to stats:

Lead: He doesn't do enough to really get a super elite lead score (like say a Cao Cao or Zhou Yu, 97+), but he is one of the most successful leaders, and he was able to get his men to cross mountains with him, and achieved success wherever he went. I'd go 94, with his only fault really being keeping Zhong Hui under control, but still one of the best leaders in the game.

War: Duels Jiang Wei on equal footing, does the same with Wen Yang. I think he ought to be at 90 as well for this.

Int: Could use a drop. With Deng Ai, I saw him as a foil for Jiang Wei, and at the same time, of Jiang Wei. They maintained their intelligence in a circular logic, so I'd put Deng Ai down at 92 to be just above him (and to account for the Wu plan, not sure how well it'd have worked), but off the real top tier generals.

Pol: Good administrator, excellent farmer, known for civil service, his actions at the end of his life with the Simas is a major knock. I'd say low 80s is more accurate for his efforts and to account for his political misfire. If no misfire, possibly 90s or high 80s.

Cha: Arrogant, a stutterer, got killed because of how he interacted with others, 43 is fine.

Skills: Acumen (civil service), Administration (works), Aid (help of others), Ambush (use of against Jiang Wei), Civil Engineer (reparing of Long Xi), Cunning (brilliance), Dash (flight to Nanan), Duelist (against Wei and Yang), Farmer (e) (he's Deng Ai), Formation (use of), Leader (command of the final invasion), Military Engineer (repairing bridges), Raid (use of), Reversal (e) (Jiang Wei's foil), Scribe (map making), Spy (noted for use of them), Terrain (e) (he's Deng Ai), Trap (multiple occasions), Valor (taking 4 arrow shots and keeping going), Wile (the disorganization of the Huns plan)

Personality: Forgot to add it to Jiang Wei. I have him as neutral. Same here with Deng Ai.

Deng Ai (196) 95-90-92-83-43 | Skills: Acumen, Administration, Aid, Ambush, Civil Engineer, Cunning, Dash, Duelist, Farmer (e), Formation, Leader, Military Engineer, Raid, Reversal (e), Scribe, Spy, Terrain (e), Trap, Valor, Wile | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found

Revised:
Political: Acumen, Administration, Civil Engineer, Farmer (e)
Military: Ambush (1), Cunning (4), Dash (5), Formation (8), Leader (11), Military Engineer (13), Raid (15), Reversal (e) (17), Terrain (e) (20), Trap (21)
Other: Duelist, Scribe

Deng Ai (196) 95-90-92-83-43 | Skills: Acumen, Administration, Ambush, Civil Engineer, Cunning, Dash, Duelist, Farmer (e), Formation, Leader, Military Engineer, Raid, Reversal (e), Scribe, Terrain (e), Trap | Items: | Ranks: Free Officer | Location: Not Found
Xiong Qibing (191) 94*-59-90*-82*-85* | Skills: Ambush, Arson, Dash, Jeer, Raid, Rally, Rumour (e), Stealth, Terrain, Trap, Wile, Zeal (e) | Items: Draft Horse [mount] (Lead +1), The Duke of Zhou's Art of War [treatise] (Pol +2, Int +1, +5% success to Wile ploys), Black Onyx Elephant Pendant [jewel] (Cha +1, Pol +1, Int +1), Jade Dragon Pendant [jewel] (Cha +2, Int +1), Trapper's Map (Lead +1, *Trap), Calligraphy (+2 Bond)
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Highonpawns » 28 Jan 2009, 10:05

Dong Zhou wrote:Jiang Wei is a liability in practise, but in terms of stat he is as broken as Deng Ai, Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang and others but I would agree with Tarrot in that the novel Jiang Wei deserves those kind of stats. Why exactly does the novel Jiang Wei not deserve high stats Highpawns?

Novel Jiang Wei deserves higher stats, say in the 80s, but even in the novel he doesn't do much well. In fact, the only real reason I think he is given 90s in all those three stats is because Zhuge Liang says he is that good. But it has been proven multiple times that Zhuge, historically and in the novel, is a terrible judge of character.


I honestly don't see Deng Ai as deserving of 90 war, either.
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Re: V5 Heroes (NPC statting)

Postby Dong Zhou » 28 Jan 2009, 12:20

I don't think Tarrot and I take into account what people say unless information on personality/deeds is small. Example, Jiang Wei being called good/incompetent is of little use as we have a lot of others works to look at, Kong Zhou on the other hand can be boosted by genuine praise.

Zhuge Liang was not a horrible judge of character, Yang Yi, Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Wang Ping, Deng Zhi, Wang Lian and many others proved successful. Two picks of his failed, Ma Su (and that was Liang using him badly more then anything) and his novel picking of Jiang Wei.

Edit: 90 war for Deng Ai? Didn't see that one coming
<stattingXe> Dong Yan 65-63-89-70-74 Statting (e)

Li Jun (160) 91*-59-69-29-59 Aid, Blitz, Charge, Leader, Scout, Vehemence

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