[V6 Draft] Chapter 8: Battle Rules

[Han1977]

How about weather, how we apply it in this global map? Is it localized? How?

I guess it is localized, otherwise I could not imagine 20 or so mystic trying to change the weather in the same turn, I guess I will be laughing hard reading one of the staff writing the gods of weather response.

[nixonator]

do bridges block river movement?
I mean if i had a unit on bridge and then an enemy come up the river with boats, do i ZOC him or can he pass right by?
Same with the rules about attacking people on bridges?
Or even special rules about using the tactic “ram” against a bridge tile?

[Chou Yu]

I have a few questions. I am not at all familiar with the previous versions' rules so sorry if some of the questions sound ignorant

1. Are diagonal melee attacks allowed? Like, is the ZoC the 8 tiles surrounding a unit or just the 4 up, down, left, right tile?

2. Is the success chance of Ambush related to unit size at all? Like... Is there a higher chance of successfully landing an ambush with 20 troops compared to 50 troops?

3. Is the success chance of Elude related to terrain? Like if I elude through heavy forests which are good for hiding will I have a better success rate than if I Elude through plains?

4. Also, if you went into Ambush mode. And then on the next turn you use Elude Movement to get into an enemy's melee range and trigger your Ambush, can you still use a tactic/ploy afterwards? Since technically you've only moved that turn.

5. Can we go into Ambush and then use Elude Movement?

Thanks, and sorry if the answer is already in the draft and I missed it.

[Xiahou Mao]

How about weather, how we apply it in this global map? Is it localized? How?

I guess it is localized, otherwise I could not imagine 20 or so mystic trying to change the weather in the same turn, I guess I will be laughing hard reading one of the staff writing the gods of weather response.

The map is divided into weather regions, we felt that was the best way to handle things. The regions are currently pretty large and will have their own default weather formulae (so a dry northwest, for example, and no snow in the south).

We haven't finalized what will happen with Mystic and multiple characters changing the weather. My inclination would be to let the highest Int user who successfully does it get the effect change he wants. I imagine we'll eventually need a tiebreaker for that! Weather changes via Mystic won't take effect until the turn after it's used now, that's one thing that we have decided.

Not ignoring the other questions, just going to leave them to Aureal or Johann who know better than me what's intended for the combat system.

[nixonator]

so on top of what i said before i've noticed someting else:

Ram
TP Cost: 25
Skill Requirement: Navy
Unit Requirement: None
Relevant Stats: Lead, Int
Restrictions: The acting unit must be adjacent to the target unit. Both units must be on water hexes.
Description: Aiming to take out the enemy’s ships, the acting unit attempts to ram the target unit. If successful, it will deal extra damage and can potentially push back the enemy unit (if the space behind the target unit is empty, and is a water hex) or even sink the ship. Sinking the ship only destroys any special ships such as Arrowships, Skirmishers and Warships- the target unit will revert back to using Rafts if the ship is sunk.

now say i "rammed" someone on a river and destoryed their ships, they would revert back to rafts, right?

but if i did the same thing on the ocean, where rafts can't go, then what happens?
(50% injury and loss of unit? )

[Wytwyld]

Could it be possible for multiple mystics to affect the weather?

Example: one changes wind while another calls for rain.
Also, if multiple "lesser" mystics work together, could they combine their ability to overrule a "powerful" mystic?

[Aureal]

do bridges block river movement?

Yes.

Or even special rules about using the tactic “ram” against a bridge tile?

If you could ram bridges, it would be in the description.

1. Are diagonal melee attacks allowed? Like, is the ZoC the 8 tiles surrounding a unit or just the 4 up, down, left, right tile?

All 8 adjacent tiles are equally valid.

4. Also, if you went into Ambush mode. And then on the next turn you use Elude Movement to get into an enemy's melee range and trigger your Ambush, can you still use a tactic/ploy afterwards? Since technically you've only moved that turn.

Yes.

5. Can we go into Ambush and then use Elude Movement?

Since you can now act and move in either order, yes.

now say i "rammed" someone on a river and destoryed their ships, they would revert back to rafts, right?

but if i did the same thing on the ocean, where rafts can't go, then what happens?
(50% injury and loss of unit? )

I guess that means that ram doesn't sink ships on the ocean, then.

Could it be possible for multiple mystics to affect the weather?

Example: one changes wind while another calls for rain.

Why would they want to work separately instead of just having one do it?

Also, if multiple "lesser" mystics work together, could they combine their ability to overrule a "powerful" mystic?

Can multiple strategists work together and combine into one super-powerful ployflinger?

[Wytwyld]

Could it be possible for multiple mystics to affect the weather?

Example: one changes wind while another calls for rain.

Why would they want to work separately instead of just having one do it?

I was thinking opposing mystics. Like mystic A calls for wind to blow fire toward the enemy while mystic B calls for snow to hamper movement. I guess that you have to pick weather and wind direction when changing it then?

Also, if multiple "lesser" mystics work together, could they combine their ability to overrule a "powerful" mystic?

Can multiple strategists work together and combine into one super-powerful ployflinger?[/quote]

I guess that makes sense. I'm a big D&D and White Wolf player, and mages in those games can get the ability to combine power, so I wondered if it would fit here.

EDIT: I hate typos.

[Han1977]

[8.5 Commands]
After moving, or foregoing movement, a unit may engage an enemy unit in combat. Actions that make direct use of your army's troops are called Commands. Most Commands have a chance of failure built in, those which automatically succeed are specified in the description. Though there are several types of Commands, these are available to all units:
...
Ranged Attack
TP Cost: 0
Skill Requirement: None
Unit Requirement: Archer-type units (Archer, Arbalest, Horse Archer, any naval units equipped with bows/arbalests)
Relevant Stats: Lead, War, Int, Cha
Restrictions: The target unit must be within the acting unit’s ranged attack range. The target unit cannot be on the other side of a wall unless there is a line of sight to it either through an open gate or from the top of a wall. Ranged attacks may not be made on a unit in an adjacent tile unless the acting unit is atop a wall and the target is below.
Description: The acting unit fires missiles at the target unit causing damage. Unless the target is also an Archer-type unit with the Counter ability, it will not get a counter-attack. Can be used on ships on water. Unlike all other attacks, Normal and Ranged Attacks have no chance of failure.

What about a mountain or hill? I think mountain is higher than a wall, if someone can't shoot people who hide behind a wall then they shouldn't be able to shoot someone behind a mountain as well. Just some thought

ADD:: Please don't shoot me *hide behind firewall

[Xeniphon]

1) In the naval combat rules it says that only archer or arbalest units gain the ranged attack of a ship, what about the special ranged attack offered by a catapult? I mean can a transport with a catapult unit stand off in a river and lob stones at walls near the river or is that special function of the catapult disabled on water?

2) I notice that in most cases comands say if they can or can't be used in naval combat, but a number of them do not say one way or another. It would be helpful to have that cleared up, have a note saying that you are to assume one way or another unless specified otherwise, ect... While most vets could figure it out new players will hav eno idea and might choose skills that conflict, thus reducing their enjoyment. An example off the top of my head is the "Harass" comand, but there are others...

3) Fusillade notes that you gain 2 or 4 MP to use before or after the attack, but also notes that you can't gain more MP than you would normally have for that turn. Since you can now move before or after an action and the skill offers you no more than you could move without it this seems strange... The skill does not seem to offer any advantage, perhaps it is the wording and not the mechanics but clarifying this would help greatly!

4) In the status effect section you talk about how the Effect Rating and say that any rating under 50 is ignored, but you don't say or even hint at what goes into the Effect rating or give anything else about it. This is confusing and while I understand that you don't want to lay out the formule certainly a vague idea of what this rating is and roughly how difficult it is to hit the 50 mark would really help us understand this new mechanic... I mean if its your stat level then clearly anyone with less than 50 in the realivant stat shouldn't be trying this at all, it would be rather cruel to offer no hint that such a character would just be wasting TP to no effect...

[Calistoknight]

3) Fusillade notes that you gain 2 or 4 MP to use before or after the attack, but also notes that you can't gain more MP than you would normally have for that turn. Since you can now move before or after an action and the skill offers you no more than you could move without it this seems strange... The skill does not seem to offer any advantage, perhaps it is the wording and not the mechanics but clarifying this would help greatly!

Well the way I understood it, the skills is more for a snipe and withdraw type of deal. You have 4 move, you move 2 to get into attack range, attack, and then move 2 squares back. Of course I think the skill will be under used, especially late game. Ranged units basically have the worst MP in the game, a 200 unit of arbalasts only have 3 mp! So honestly you'd probably only get one turn to use the ability without the enemy reaching you, and then the next turn you'd either have keep running or the enemy would be up in your face, and thats if they arn't calvalry in which the ability is essentially useless. I don't honestly remember this command being used my in V5 either.

[Xeniphon]

It was used effectively to move onto walls to shoot then move back off them again so you couldn't be shot by other ranged units outside the walls (aside from counterattacks by ranged units with Counter of course).

The real issue is that being able to move either before or after an attack means that if the enemy comes within range you can fire and then move your full distance to actually get a superior effect. Since you can't gain more MP than you had to start with that makes the skill useless in that situation, if you move your full (or nearly) MP before hand to get into range then again you can't gain the benifit of this skill because you can't gain more MP than you origonally have for the turn, and finally 4 MP is for the expertised version of the skill mind you with only 2 MP for the regular version and looking at the movement rates of units (elevated from last version) those 2 or even 4 MP are not likely to do much unless your using them to move off a mountain the other unit has to cross to get at you...

In short the only times this is effective as is are; when you move to range with at least as many MP as your bonus fromt he skill remaining (restricting movement to short bits), moving on to and then off of a wall to reduce damage to your unit from enemy ranged units, and moving from a high MP terrain feature that the enemy needs to coss to reach you (requires a shoreline, mountain, the enemy to be significantly larger/burdened by attachments and even then requiring careful placement to set up the action, and/or being near enough to a gate so that you can retreat within and close it after the attack).

Is the skill useless? No, but is it underpowered or overly restrictive? In my opinion yes. That doesn't mean the staff will agree or do anything, but I felt something needed to be said regardless.

[Sun Tang]

Questions regarding siege towers.

#1. Can a defense force use a siege tower?
#2. Can a tower shoot over a wall at enemy units on the ground?
#3. Depending on the answer to the questions above, is it possible to begin a siege battle with the defending force positioning a tower unit on the walls?
#3. If an archer unit has a tower equipped, what is the ranged attack power of that unit?
#4. If a unit with a siege tower equipped is rolled next to a wall, and a unit moves onto the wall and abandons the siege tower basically, is it possible for an enemy unit to not only equip that tower, but keep it after the battle?

[Han1977]

How about weather, how we apply it in this global map? Is it localized? How?

I guess it is localized, otherwise I could not imagine 20 or so mystic trying to change the weather in the same turn, I guess I will be laughing hard reading one of the staff writing the gods of weather response.

The map is divided into weather regions, we felt that was the best way to handle things. The regions are currently pretty large and will have their own default weather formulae (so a dry northwest, for example, and no snow in the south).

We haven't finalized what will happen with Mystic and multiple characters changing the weather. My inclination would be to let the highest Int user who successfully does it get the effect change he wants. I imagine we'll eventually need a tiebreaker for that! Weather changes via Mystic won't take effect until the turn after it's used now, that's one thing that we have decided.

Not ignoring the other questions, just going to leave them to Aureal or Johann who know better than me what's intended for the combat system.

I have idea, how about to make the effect of wind & weather limited to a region around the spellcaster? So there is no certain region, it depend on where the mystic do the ploy.

Or maybe we could erase the ploy, we can live without a mystic changing weather and wind direction and certainly we could kill (battle) without one. In exchange we make mystic as 2 SP skill instead of 3 SP skill.

[Aureal]

1) In the naval combat rules it says that only archer or arbalest units gain the ranged attack of a ship, what about the special ranged attack offered by a catapult? I mean can a transport with a catapult unit stand off in a river and lob stones at walls near the river or is that special function of the catapult disabled on water?

I don't see any reason to allow it. Trying to use a catapult on a transport ship sounds like a really bad idea.

3) Fusillade notes that you gain 2 or 4 MP to use before or after the attack, but also notes that you can't gain more MP than you would normally have for that turn. Since you can now move before or after an action and the skill offers you no more than you could move without it this seems strange... The skill does not seem to offer any advantage, perhaps it is the wording and not the mechanics but clarifying this would help greatly!

You don't see any way to get an advantage from being able to move, attack, then move again? *shrug* I can, but it's not my place to give people tactics ideas!

Questions regarding siege towers.

#1. Can a defense force use a siege tower?

What's a defense force?

#2. Can a tower shoot over a wall at enemy units on the ground?

Yes.

#3. Depending on the answer to the questions above, is it possible to begin a siege battle with the defending force positioning a tower unit on the walls?

What's a siege battle?

#3. If an archer unit has a tower equipped, what is the ranged attack power of that unit?

Its normal ranged attack value.

#4. If a unit with a siege tower equipped is rolled next to a wall, and a unit moves onto the wall and abandons the siege tower basically, is it possible for an enemy unit to not only equip that tower, but keep it after the battle?

What's "after the battle"?