V6 Map Feedback

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

Hello everyone,

If you click on 'Map' in the top menu you'll notice something new. If you click on that map you'll notice another something new. If you click on 'Load Battlefield' you'll notice yet another something incredibly new.

Welcome to the new V6 unified map/battlefield system. We would love to hear your thoughts and feedback! If you encounter any bugs, or think you've encountered a problem, or if you have an idea which you would like to share, please do share it here! This fine map will be progressively enhanced and refined through pre-game testing.

[CapnSwashbuckler]

This is pretty boss, and the potential implications for gameplay are enormous. I'm sure people will consider them all and put their thoughts into words better than I will, but I think it's pretty impossible to not recognize how huge this could be. XZX, Aureal, I'm amazed.

[Xu Yuan]

I thought on first glance that it was amazing. Then I saw that you could see unit info and thought it was incredible. Then I loaded battlefield and though it was a dream. Then I saw that battlefields are enormous affairs with various cities in them and it all seemed like a fantasy.

You madame and sirs, have truly outdone yourselves with this. As I wrote in the OOC thread the potential this has is exponential and I cannot wait to see what the staff will cook up for it's use.

[t4lruum]

Not sure if it's just me, but the main map is too zoomed-out(too small), the battlefield is too zoomed-in(too big).
Suggestion: make the size square when zoomed in similar to old-style map? Currently we can only see 16 square from top to bottom, unless the plan is to make units moves so slow, otherwise it's scrolling annoyance when trying to track enemy/friendly cavalries.

EDIT:
Is there any way to open separate window for each general's information?
Assuming trying to track >10 generals in battlefield by clicking and then closing the window of each of them one by one will get kinda annoying

The column which has list of forces and units, in addition to on-hover, is it possible to make it click-able to zoom to that unit?

[edwchong]

Great map with many functionality! Cudos to the staff!
I like how maps are available for all to plan ahead for expansion and information is displayed
I understand that due to the greater amount of data needed to load, the time needed to load the map does increased quite a bit as compared to before.

Suggestions
1) Is there a way to present the whole map without scrolling and a zoom function be added to faciliate viewing? Scrolling around might make one miss out some details of the battlefield.

2) The map color looks a bit dull from my Iphone 4S, will it be better with a brighter contrast?

3) The cavlary and horse riders look largely similar(other than the spear and bow), can there also be a color difference (ie gold for horse riders, silver for cavlary) for easier differentiation? Same goes to normal troops and heavy arms troops.

4) When loading battlefield, can there be a scroll list at the side to reflect all the units and their skills (like V5's force post)?

Questions:
1) Will updating the map be very troublesome, in turn resulting in taking longer to post battle results and updating unit positions on the map?

2) I see that you reflect the individual units on the overall China map. but imagine 5-10 battles ongoing with each battle having 20 or more units in it, will it be possible to update? will it be very tedious?

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

This is pretty boss, and the potential implications for gameplay are enormous. I'm sure people will consider them all and put their thoughts into words better than I will, but I think it's pretty impossible to not recognize how huge this could be. XZX, Aureal, I'm amazed.

You madame and sirs, have truly outdone yourselves with this. As I wrote in the OOC thread the potential this has is exponential and I cannot wait to see what the staff will cook up for it's use.

Thank you! And yes, we have already discussed a wide range of very interesting ideas for the map. Certainly there will be many that don't make it into V6, but the map can definitely evolve with new features and capabilities over future versions (and some might even get introduced through V6). Some of the most interesting ideas come about when you take an interactive landscape into consideration.

Not sure if it's just me, but the main map is too zoomed-out(too small), the battlefield is too zoomed-in(too big). Suggestion: make the size square when zoomed in similar to old-style map? Currently we can only see 16 square from top to bottom, unless the plan is to make units moves so slow, otherwise it's scrolling annoyance when trying to track enemy/friendly cavalries.

This was a consideration during development and perhaps I would have liked the tiles to be a touch smaller (but not much). The problem is that as you make the map smaller certain information, such as officer names, becomes much harder to represent without some kind of mouseover interactivity, and you also run into less information about the tile a sprite is sitting on showing up behind that sprite.

To assist with this problem you can use the minimap in the top-right-hand corner of a battlefield view. Through it you can see units active on the battlefield, battlefield concerns like fires, and best of all, you can click on that map to automatically scroll to any point on the battlefield. Also, you can click on battlefield units and locations in the right-hand menu to scroll to those units and locations. Used properly, this should allow you to navigate the battlefield much more smoothly than some computers allow (e.g. I know there are plenty of mice out there that don't help with horizontal scrolling).

Finally, depending on your browser, you might actually be able to use its built in zoom feature to zoom in and out on the map. This may include the controls, which might be frustrating, but it is another option. In some browsers this will start to break parts of the map. It depends on how good the browser's scrolling capabilities are.

Is there any way to open separate window for each general's information?
Assuming trying to track >10 generals in battlefield by clicking and then closing the window of each of them one by one will get kinda annoying

I'm not sure about managing individual windows, but it might be worth adding a tool to create a battlefield report which displays information about all units presently on the battlefield for just such a purpose.

The column which has list of forces and units, in addition to on-hover, is it possible to make it click-able to zoom to that unit?

This should already be possible, at least for units which are on the battlefield. You cannot scroll to units listed under 'nearby', but those should bring up their stats even though they're not actually on the battlefield.

1) Is there a way to present the whole map without scrolling and a zoom function be added to faciliate viewing? Scrolling around might make one miss out some details of the battlefield.

Please see my answer above. Use the minimap for an overview of what is happening on the battlefield. As for zooming, certain things like that would work a little more smoothly if I had created these maps in Adobe Flash or Java, but instead I chose the far more accessible and easier to load HTML5/JavaScript approach. It is also possible to create more advanced applications with that platform but I'm just one programmer/designer.

2) The map color looks a bit dull from my Iphone 4S, will it be better with a brighter contrast?

The brighter the contrast, the more difficult it is to make out battlefield elements which require attention (such as units). I also thought it was already rather high contrast when details came into play (such as units or locations). We definitely wouldn't want things like roads or grasslands to be high-contrast or distracting.

3) The cavlary and horse riders look largely similar(other than the spear and bow), can there also be a color difference (ie gold for horse riders, silver for cavlary) for easier differentiation? Same goes to normal troops and heavy arms troops.

Color is reserved for differentiating between factions. If I start coloring the individual units in specific ways it could make it more difficult to tell them apart at a glance by faction. Although maybe a hint of color, used properly and consistently, might help to differentiate between infantry/heavy infantry, or cavalry/cavalry archer. I'll think about that.

4) When loading battlefield, can there be a scroll list at the side to reflect all the units and their skills (like V5's force post)?

You would have to give me an example. That said, a battle report is a good possibility.

Questions:
1) Will updating the map be very troublesome, in turn resulting in taking longer to post battle results and updating unit positions on the map?

2) I see that you reflect the individual units on the overall China map. but imagine 5-10 battles ongoing with each battle having 20 or more units in it, will it be possible to update? will it be very tedious?

The team members who will be using the tools I've created and running these battles are probably the most qualified to answer this question, but I have a feeling that updates won't be too complicated to manage. Multiple team members can work on the map simultaneously, with little-to-no collaboration, meaning someone can manage a battle in Luoyang while another manages a battle in Chengdu.

[Xiahou Mao]

Questions:
1) Will updating the map be very troublesome, in turn resulting in taking longer to post battle results and updating unit positions on the map?

2) I see that you reflect the individual units on the overall China map. but imagine 5-10 battles ongoing with each battle having 20 or more units in it, will it be possible to update? will it be very tedious?

I can answer these!

We have a nice automated setup that turns properly formatted force post submissions into units for play on the map, so this won't be a problem at all. Given the correct formatting (which people were already expected to have last game), creating a new unit (or units, I can upload many at once!) would take me roughly 10 seconds of copy and paste. I can move a unit around (or initially place it) simply by entering new coordinates for it, and then it's moved. That's another 10 seconds. The overall China map and the individual "Load Battlefield" maps are interconnected, so as those smaller battles are being resolved they'll be updated at the exact same time on the big map.

Battle results should be coming faster than before, because they're going to be done one turn at a time, which will make them both less of a chore to write tactics for (you won't need 5 turns worth of conditionals) and less of a chore to run (tactics will be easier to interpret when they're one and done). By assigning different map areas to different staff members, we should be able to handle multiple battles relatively quickly and wind up with a faster turn progression as a result. Since we were already updating unit stats/damage and moving them around on the smaller battle maps (just without a functionality to let players see it as it happened), doing it on the new map won't be nearly as bad because less actions will be processed at a time.

Hell, compiling the list of unit locations/damage for the old battle maps for new tactics calls probably took longer than updating them in this system will!

[Roughrider]

When someone says 5-10 battles...Uh...

On a map like this, I'm trying to think that through, and well, basically, does this mean battles can bleed into one another and such, even if the objectives of two separate attacking forces are, say, two nearby, but completely unrelated cities? I am guessing skills are being altered so that they function on this map, and anything that used to affect "whole battles" becomes some sort of AoE.

Also, I'm rather puzzled by the transport unit. Does this mean moving resources from city to city will now also have to be part of the updating process? Seems like a bit of extra work, even if it is more realistic.

[JohannXIV]

Also, I'm rather puzzled by the transport unit. Does this mean moving resources from city to city will now also have to be part of the updating process? Seems like a bit of extra work, even if it is more realistic.

Correct. Moving your food stuffs, siege equipment, and weapons from one city to another will actually entail some risk. Beware the force that goes rogue and decides your toys would fit their soldiers better.

[Calistoknight]

Well most of my concerns were already answered but I think one function I'd like to ask for is that currently when you click on a general it moves the map/cursor to that unit. I'd like to be able to double click the name and have stats pop up on that unit as well if possible. Just because finding the right unit to click can take longer than needed.

Example on the map is Dong Zhuo's forces, they are kind of clumped on the main map. So to see the unit I want I'd have to either search around and hope my unit isn't buried, click on a random unit and load battlefield to find it, or click on the nearby units tab (which I don't know if there is an upper limit to how many units will appear or if you can scroll, thinking back to massive end game battles) to find it when it would just be simplier/half a second quicker to double click Lu Bu's name and there is his stats (and other info)

[Xiahou Mao]

Battles certainly can bleed into each other. There shouldn't be many 'global' effects anymore, so it shouldn't really be too much of a worry. The biggest change I can think of off the top of my head involves Mystic, which might change the weather of a pretty large region (city/town regions are displayed when you hover over them). We're currently looking at having the weather-changing effects of Mystic take effect the turn after they're used, and would need to come up with some kind of tie-breaker for when multiple Mystics try to control the weather within a region. Maybe something as simple as "Highest Int wins".

I'm not sure what else would be an "AoE" effect. Rally and Jeer will be changed to better reflect each unit's ability to have its own morale, and if they affect multiple units it should be much more localized than before. I don't have the details on that right now, though Aureal probably does.

Supplies transported between cities will need to be run like normal units now, yes. Transport units should travel decently fast, but also will be quite vulnerable, so we might see raids against supply units and/or escorts to protect them in more dangerous areas. Building roads between your cities to help your transports travel more quickly might be advisable!

[Han Shao]

Will there be overlays for things like Regions/Provinces? Who owns what provinces, ect.?

As an aside, SimRTK and the ROTK games has always been very city-centric. I always thought it was more appropriate to the source material for people to talk in terms of provinces and areas rather than individual towns.

Also.... does this mean we can built forts and gates anywhere?

[Kagemusha]

First off, I'm impressed both with the application of a concept I've long wanted to see implimented in a sim context and with Aureal's mammoth map undertaking: having at one stage attempted to map out China on one large battle map, I know it's a lot of work. Great work team SimRTK!!

Edit: Ah wait that's right Ambush/Elude combo!

[X-Calibre]

I'll keep my input brief:

Drag scrolling on the tactical map, please.

[JohannXIV]

Will there be overlays for things like Regions/Provinces? Who owns what provinces, ect.?

As an aside, SimRTK and the ROTK games has always been very city-centric. I always thought it was more appropriate to the source material for people to talk in terms of provinces and areas rather than individual towns.

Also.... does this mean we can built forts and gates anywhere?

There are yellow lines on the battlefield map-zooms to show different regions. Also if you hover over cities and towns, they tell you which province/region they're in.

Yes, you'll be able to build 'forts' and fortifications in the field via battle field actions. And I'd advise building 'gates' over roads. Merchants get cranky when they have to detour around your blockade for no apparent reason.