Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby slick » 03 Jul 2010, 03:46

Too lazy to look it up, but if I remember correctly, Pang De took Guo Yuan's head in the after-pursuit. Both Ma Chao and Pang De had led their troops well in the actual battle. It was apparently Zhong Yao's strategy of attacking the enemy as they crossed the river that was employed to achieve decisive victory.

Essentially they all played a role. Pang De was also lower in rank than Ma Chao and was under Ma Chao's overall command. Pang De's beheading of Guo Yuan was certainly a great feat however. In valor in general, Pang De far outmatched Ma Chao during their respective careers.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby jiangbao » 06 Jul 2010, 08:06

what happened to Huang Hao at the end of the day? I read somewhere, he bribed his way and his fate remained unknown. Is that true?
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby Dong Zhou » 06 Jul 2010, 08:23

jiangbao wrote:what happened to Huang Hao at the end of the day? I read somewhere, he bribed his way and his fate remained unknown. Is that true?


Pretty much.

I don't imagine the fate was going to be good for a eunuch without a job but maybe he managed to have some money stored away elsewhere
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby slick » 19 Jul 2010, 15:01

I hope he joined a circus as a clown. I can only imagine what Huang Hao: The Afteryears would look like otherwise.

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby jiangbao » 26 Jul 2010, 02:32

Just wanted to know more about Cao Bao

In the first TV series, he was the uncle of Lu Bu or something. In the new series, he is much younger, a younger cousin to Lu Bu.

So my question is what is his relation to Lu Bu and why would he be in Xu Zhou and not with Lu Bu at the get go? After he decided to Zhang Fei sucks and betrayed the city to Lu Bu, what happened to him at the end?
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby Dong Zhou » 26 Jul 2010, 05:52

Novel: Father-in-law. We don't know when that relationship happened so my guess is when Lu Bu entered Xu but Cao Bao had spent his career in Xu before Liu Bei was even there so presumably stuck with local rulers. He gets killed in the aftermath by Zhang Fei

History: None what's so ever. Possibly a local officer, at the time he was Chancellor of Xia Pi and would seem to have had some influence in the area. Executed either due to power clash or Zhang Fei thinking Cao Bao was going to defect to Yuan Shu
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby Cao Chao » 26 Jul 2010, 21:58

According to SGZ, right as Lü Bu attacks Xiapi, a long-running disagreement between Cao Bao and Zhang Fei results in Cao Bao's death and chaos in the city. One of Liu Bei's corps commanders, Xu Dan, sends men to welcome Lü Bu into the city.

In the Record of Heroes, Cao Bao defects because Zhang Fei wants to kill him.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby jinx » 19 Jun 2011, 03:18

Wow. The last post in this thread was almost a year ago. I've a question related to the previous question though (after watching the same show).

If Chen Gong was repulsed by Cao Cao's character, why did he agree to Lu Bu's betrayal of Liu Bei to seize Xuzhou? What did he see in Lu Bu anyway to agree to serve him?
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby OneEyedDrgn » 19 Jun 2011, 05:18

Probably just a difference in moral views. Chen Gong was appalled by Cao Cao murdering his family to cover up his mistake, a bit different from betraying Liu Bei which can simply be seen as strategy.

That said I really never understood Chen Gong's character either. The guy decided to join Cao Cao at the start because he was apparently loyal to the emperor. I'm not sure why he decided then to join Lu Bu and help him betray Liu Bei, when the latter was considered a far more loyal vassal to the Han and was fighting against Yuan Shu who was seen as a false emperor. I guess Lu Bu was seen as loyal to the Han after he killed Dong Zhuo... But still.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby Cao Chao » 19 Jun 2011, 18:41

Personally for me, Chen Gong's behavior in the novel reaches the level of despicable when he is for the marriage of Lu Bu's daughter to Yuan Shu's son. I know at that point, it's all about survival, but seriously . . . it really seems that Gongtai has lost his way. If you're a Han loyalist, how can you countenance someone who has stolen the Imperial Seal and styled himself as an Emperor?

Historically, the entire incident from Cao Cao trying to assassinate Dong Zhuo to meeting with Chen Gong to killing Lu Boshe never happened. In reality, Cao Cao was offered a rank by Dong Zhuo. He refused the position and became a fugitive.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby Dong Zhou » 20 Jun 2011, 08:59

I would more take exception to his actions when Tao Qian invaded Xu or the way he put his own interests above that of Lu Bu's faction.

If Chen Gong was repulsed by Cao Cao's character, why did he agree to Lu Bu's betrayal of Liu Bei to seize Xuzhou? What did he see in Lu Bu anyway to agree to serve him?


1) I don't think the novel Chen Gong was a man to, once committed to a lord, to easily betray them, even when he was frustrated and knew Lu Bu was going to lose, he didn't. Partly due to fear of what the people would say.

Since he was committed to Lu Bu and was obsessed with destroying "the evil one"/Cao Cao, which seems to become his goal far far more then Han loyalty, then he was going to have to get his hands dirty. Seizing Xu province in a backstab was a necessary evil so that the evil one was defeated. I'm not sure what Gong's plan after that was, maybe he didn't have anything beyond Cao Cao must die.

2) Circumstance. Yan province was exposed, Zhang Miao was the local powerful faction that Gong could hope to persuade in and Lu Bu was nearby to become CIC of the revolt with Gong as adviser. From what I recall, Gong seems to end up liking Lu Bu to a degree despite his frustration but the original union was circumstance.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby Leung Sik Gai » 30 Jun 2011, 01:13

Novel Chen Gong was always one of my favorites, I find his relationship with Cao Cao to be one of the most fascinating. Even though former friends, Chen Gong seemed to despise Cao Cao's true nature, yet Cao Cao at the end seemed to want Chen Gong to desperately believe in him, in my opinion b/c he felt if Chen Gong could believe in him, then everyone else could as well, especially after Chen Gong saw the worst in Cao with the murders. Which is also why Cao was uncharacteristically and legitimately sad for Chen, and even left his own assembly to be with his "friend" till the end hoping he would change his mind. I defiantly see some hypocritical actions of Chen, but I think the distinction was that Cao killed in cold blood innocents, where as Chen was furthering political and military gains through cunning and strategy. If I recall correctly Cao confronted Chen as to why Chen called Cao evil yet how does he explain serving Lu Bu. The response was that Lu was a fool but he did not resemble Cao in deceit and wickedness.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby LingShao » 03 Jul 2011, 00:20

Well, Novel-wise ~ I think Chen saw too much of Cao Cao's personal character with traveling with him. Chen was woo'ed by what Cao Cao may have said to him like "I want this for the Han, I want to do it this way, ect (broad way of explaining) but it seems Chen noticed the way he implemented what Cao Cao wanted was not the way he spoke to him and found his methods harsh. I'm not putting either side down, but Lu Bu may have been harsh as well but he may have a different way of handleing things (besides his big mistakes shown in the novel). And no one knew the full extent of one's character because no one had cellphones, pictures to prove, or anything for that matter to validate what happened. So if one town began a rumor and it spread acorss the land, there is no one to stop it and it could become reality just by everyone believeing it. But Chen saw Cao Cao's character first-hand.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby Meng Hida » 29 Oct 2011, 01:51

I think Chen Gong went to Lu Bu because, well he was Lu Bu. I mean if you hate someone and want him taken out then you get the biggest baddest cruise missile and point him towards them. Which at the time was Lu Bu.

I agree though that ever since that night Chen Gong's goal has been to destroy Cao Cao instead of to restore the Han. Maybe Cao Cao was the first person he saw in his career who wanted to restore the hans and since he turned out the way he did Chen Gong got really dissapointed?
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel/Era - Discussion Thread

Postby OneEyedDrgn » 10 Jul 2012, 02:13

I need an analysis and evaluation of Cao Ren as a general. Usually, Cao Ren is thrown up as one of the best generals of the three kingdoms and he's highly regarded. The problem for me is that while reading the novel, I never really saw much from it besides jobbing. The only time I could ever recall being impressed by him was saving Niu Jin.

Can I filled on his skills and battle history as a general?
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